Can I get your help and understanding?

[blakparty]

Hi Everyone,
     I was reading Luke 16 about the dishonest manager.  What threw me off was that at the end of the parable, the owner praised the dishonest manager and Jesus says to use the wicked wealth to make friends.  I prayed for better understanding for this parable to see it spiritually for a while.  If I had my way, I would like to understand everything in God's Word and what I have notice through this journey with Christ is that every time I ask for understanding it happens to me. (Can anybody testifies with this?)  Anyway could some one who has a spiritual understanding of this help me out.  Thanks in advance, Rob (blakparty).

[YellowStone]

Hi Rob,

Your post/question sure got the brain cells working overtime 

I think your question stems from the following verse:

Luke 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

What the dishonest manger did was preempted on the decision he made in verse 4.

Luke16:4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.

Obviously, the decision please the Master, for we are told in verse 8 that:

Luk 16:8   And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. 

Therefore, there must be a significant spiritual parallel that Christ made with this story.

So what does "for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light" mean in a spiritual context?

It cannot be advocating dishonesty, for we are told in verse 10 that:  "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much." So instead of rewarding the dishonest manager, for being unjust; Jesus used this story to illustrate the practicality and wisdom (of this world) used in order to obtain his future after the managers job was gone.

Therefore, I believe that the spiritual meaning behind this parable is that, we should use the Spirit of Truth wisely. It would seem that this includes in this life, money, which is not really ours for it cannot be passed to the next life. Therefore, as mere holders of material objects, we should use such wisely along with the truth of the spirit to help and comfort others in the hope that they will see the spirit of truth in our actions and that we seek not gain, but rather praise and honor to God. This, in the hope that we will be likewise welcomed hin the Kingdom of God, when this age ends.

I think this fits very well with the folling:

Luk 16:10   He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.  

Luk 16:11   If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon (money), who will commit to your trust the true [riches]? 

Well, that's the way I see it. Comments welcome

Love in Christ,
Darren

[blakparty]

Thank Darren
That kinda cleared that up for me.

[TimothyVI]

Hi Darren,

It is unfortunate that we can not hear Jesus actually tell the parable.
Wouldn't you love to hear his voice inflections, see his body language as He told this story?

I think that this parable was actually given tongue in cheek. That Jesus was using a little
sarcasm in his story telling.

The only thing that the steward was accused of was wasting that for which he was in charge. What the steward did then was give what was not his to give, to other people, in the hopes that they would give him refuge when he lost his stewardship. He bought them off with what was not his.

I think that Jesus was using sarcasm when he applauded the steward because he thought that he had been sooo smart. I can almost here the sarcasm in his voice when Jesus says, the sons of this generation are so much wiser than the children of light. ( The children of light are those who follow Him.)

Jesus then says to make for yourselves friends of the unjust wealth so that they can give you an everlasting home. Can't you just see the sarcasm dripping from this statement?
His followers knew that He was there to give us an everlasting home. But He says to make friends of the unjust mammon and let them give you an everlasting home.

Don't you see? This steward tried to justify himself with men, not with his master.
Jesus goes on in this same parable to deride the Pharisees for doing the exact same thing.
Trying to justify themselves to men. But God knows their true heart.

Luk 16:15
   And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

That is just my take on the parable of the unjust steward. I did not believe the answer that my pastor gave me years ago when I asked him why Jesus commended someone who was a sneak. So I studied it, prayed over it and tried to hear the story the way that Jesus may have told it. This is what God left me with. Whether it is correct or not is not important to me. That I was given another understanding of what Jesus may have meant gives me comfort.

I know that there are also spiritual meanings to the parables that go deeper than the actual story. Darren may be on the right track with his explanation of that.

Tim

[Deborah-Leigh]

Tim

You make a very valid point about hearing the sarcasm in the voice of Christ.

This brings to mind the statement Matt 10 : 16 Be wary and wise as serpents, and be innocent, harmless, guileless and without falsity as doves.

When in doubt it is good to go to the tool box we have from Ray on how to read and understand the scriptures posted on this site. One of the tools is not to take any word spoken by Christ literally. We are not to BE LIKE a serpent or as a sitting duck or dove.

The children of His Kingdom have to be not as the dishonest and rejected servant but should be as tenacious, resilient and enduring AS the wicked servant not LIKE HIM!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Hi Tim and Arcturus,

I agree that Christ often used sarcasm to great effect; Yet, Christ was not speaking at anyone in this instance; he was speaking too them....

Luk 16:1 ¶ And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

No, I do not read a single hint of sarcasm in this parable.

However, we are not so different on our views.......you wrote:

The only thing that the steward was accused of was wasting that for which he was in charge. What the steward did then was give what was not his to give, to other people, in the hopes that they would give him refuge when he lost his stewardship. He bought them off with what was not his.

Do we not also as sons of God, waste what is not ours. Who can say that they have not wasted some of the truth that we have been intrusted with? I know that I cannot.

Are we not as ambassadors of God to spread the truth and good fortune (please do not tell me that having the truth is not worth more than gold) that God has so graciously given us to use (for we own nothing that either will not be destroyed or owned by someone else later on.) How can we be true children of God and withhold the love and truth to ourselves? Yet the truth is more than words, anyone can speak. The truth is love and charity.

1Cr 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity. 

We are to give of ourselves. How can we be faithful in the material objects given us, if we hide them away and keep them for ourselves at the exclusion of all others? Is such as this any different than the servant entrusted with a single talent?

Mat 25:25  And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.

Mat 25:26  His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

What then did Christ say?

Mat 25:29  For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Does this not give perfect witness to the following words of Christ in Luke 16:10 & 11?

Luk 16:10  He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

Luk 16:11  If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true [riches]?

Tim, I know you did not discount my post.

I just wanted to explain further why I believe the spiritual message was not laced with sarcasm.

Comments always welcome.

In Christ with Love,
Darren

[TimothyVI]

Hi Darren,

I truly hope that I did not appear to discount your post. I have the greatest respect for your insight and have learned much from your posts.

I can see where Jesus would commend the steward for sharing with others if he did it for the glory of God. I fear that I did a poor job of relaying that I think that the problem was, and Jesus makes it clear, that both the steward and the Pharisees may have done what was expected of them in regards to sharing their mammon, but both did it for the wrong reason. They did it to justify themselves with men. That is why Jesus said that God knew the real reason, what was in their hearts.

Here is the point that really made me question if Jesus was merely using sarcasm.
I thought that the children of light were the followers of Jesus. Why then would Jesus say that the sons of the world were wiser than the children of light unless He was being sarcastic?
I believe that He sarcastically added this line so that his listeners would know that commending the unjust steward, which He had done just prior to saying this, was also sarcasm.

At any rate, I am not here to teach. I just gave my opinion on blakparty's question. We all get what God permits us to get from scriptures.
Far too many times I must admit, I don't get it at all. That is why I read what Ray has to say about it.

Love to all,

Tim

[hillsbororiver]

Hello all,

Perhaps sarcastic is not quite the description of this parable, maybe facetious or tongue in cheek may be a better way to phrase His Words.

In the worldly way of doing things a moral person has less options on how to gain money than an immoral person.

An immoral person might use stealing, lying, prostitution, conning, selling contraband, etc. These are not options for a moral God obeying person. So in that regard a worldly, immoral person is wiser if the only goal is temporal and their only god is money/worldly gain.

That is my take on this.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[TimothyVI]

Hello all,

Perhaps sarcastic is not quite the description of this parable, maybe facetious or tongue in cheek may be a better way to phrase His Words.

In the worldly way of doing things a moral person has less options on how to gain money than an immoral person.

An immoral person might use stealing, lying, prostitution, conning, selling contraband, etc. These are not options for a moral God obeying person. So in that regard a worldly, immoral person is wiser if the only goal is temporal and their only god is money/worldly gain.

That is my take on this.

His Peace to you,

Joe

Thanks Joe,
Perhaps sarcastic was not the right word to use.
Your definition of wise may explain why the wisdom of the world is foolishness in the eyes of God.

Tim

[YellowStone]

Not a problem Tim,

Here's a question. I do not know of a time that Jesus used sarcasm in a parable and it is my understanding that he did not. Am I wrong?  

Paul writes on the same subject. (RSV)

Rom 11:13   Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry  
Rom 11:14  in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.  

I think also that there is great insight in Pauls following words.

Rom 11:16   If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.  
Rom 11:17   But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18   do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you.  
Rom 11:19   You will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."  
Rom 11:20   That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.
Rom 11:21   For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Paul says in verse 14, that he speaks differently in order to make his fellow jews jealous, yet in verse 18, he instructs that we must not boast. Paul was speaking of the promise in such away that his listeners yearned for it; however, it was not his to give. I believe that this is what is meant in Luke 16:8

Luke 16:8  And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Perhaps Christ used a play on words when he said: "for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light." What did he really mean? The wisdom of this world is foolishness.

1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?  

I believe that Paul spoke the foolish words of the world in order for his real message to be heard, in other words he fed them milk perhaps sweetened with honey, instead of the meaty, heavy truth known to the children of light. I am afraid if we dismiss Christs remarks as being sarcastic, that we miss fully the spiritual message behind the parable.

Tim, I truly appreciate your comments.

Thank you my brother,
Darren

[YellowStone]

Hey Joe,

You posted while I was responding.

Yes, you said: facetious or tongue in cheek and I said: play on words.

We are in agrreement brother

Love Darren

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Darren,

The wonderful feeling of like mindedness 

His Peace to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Hello all,

Perhaps sarcastic is not quite the description of this parable, maybe facetious or tongue in cheek may be a better way to phrase His Words.

In the worldly way of doing things a moral person has less options on how to gain money than an immoral person.

An immoral person might use stealing, lying, prostitution, conning, selling contraband, etc. These are not options for a moral God obeying person. So in that regard a worldly, immoral person is wiser if the only goal is temporal and their only god is money/worldly gain.

That is my take on this.

His Peace to you,

Joe

Thanks Joe,
Perhaps sarcastic was not the right word to use.
Your definition of wise may explain why the wisdom of the world is foolishness in the eyes of God.

Tim

AMEN! To that Tim.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[Chris R]

Hello,


So he called every one of his master's debtors to him, and said to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?' 6 And he said, 'A hundred [fn1] measures of oil.' So he said to him, 'Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.' 7 Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' So he said, 'A hundred [fn2] measures of wheat.' And he said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.' 8 So the master commended the unjust steward because he had dealt shrewdly. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light.

It certainly wasn't Christ who "commended" this deed, Rather it was the Master of the steward.

And yes, The sons of this world are more shrewd, but only in "their" generation.

And yes we are to be "friends"..or associates..with unrighteous mammon...but we are warned we will fail. why do we fail? because many are called, few are chosen.

hope this is of some help

Chris R

[Kat]

Hi Chris,

Thank you for your reply, you have given me the key to understanding this parable.  The master was not Christ.  I had always just asummed it was talking about Christ, and could never get it.  Now with that it mind it all falls in place.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Ditto!

Thank you Chris for pointing that out, it flew right over my head too.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[blakparty]

I want to thank God that I have you guys and gals as bother's and sister's in Christ.  This is better than having all the gold and silver in the world and that is truly from my heart.  I thank God that He led me to this forum with all of you so that I will know the truth and be set free.  Out of all the years that I have been going to the "synagogue", I have not felt the love that I have felt in the last couple of weeks.  I love studing the scriputures and I see that you all do too!  It helps that I have you all as my new "ekklisia".  I hope and pray to my Father that one day that I will have the understanding of the scriptures that you do.  What I am in the process of doing is unlearning all the heresey that I thoght was the truth and begin renewing my mind to the truth.  I find myself addicted to learn more about the Word of God.  So please pray for me that I recieve the wisdom and understanding of God's true Gospel and maybe one day I can anwer one of your questions.  Thanks to all and now I have a clear understanding of what that particular scripture means.  I will try not to waste all of the truth and share it to others even if they persecute me and trust me I have ran into that already.  Love to all and God bless!!!!

[YellowStone]

Hey Chris,

I guess I shoul apologize, for not making the point that the Master was not Christ clearer.

But honestly, I never connected the two, Christ was talking about.....the master of the steward.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Blakparty, you are more than welcome.

The truth SHALL set you free.

Darren