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free will?

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YellowStone:
Hi Jackie,

This will be short as there is not much to proving that free-will cannot exist.

All one needs is to ask: If you could do it your way, would you?

Of course, one will get a resounding: "You bet!!" :)

Here is the "check-mate" move. Just ask: "Then why don't you, your will is free is it not?"  :D

After that, you can perhaps ask why "they" didn't step in earlier: they were free to do so, were they not.

It's just a matter of perspective; we all live in our own little world and even that is severly limited. :)

I hope this helps, perhaps you can use it sometime. :)

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

gmik:
 ;D ;D

It just keeps getting better!

Robin:
Ditto to what Gena said. I appreciated all the replies. Thank you!

Hebrews 12:16-18
16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

I've experienced this myself. Many years ago when I first started seeking truth God made it very clear to me that he wanted me out of a relationship I was in. At that time that relationship was the desire of my heart. It was everything I'd hoped for after a long life of neglect and abuse. I heard God's command and wanted to obey, but the desire of my heart was not in the right place. I started to seek repentance. I wanted to obey God. I just couldn't do it. I sought it with tears. This went on for 4 years. During that 4 years God was teaching me about having no free will. I was telling all my friends in my church at that time that we had no free will.

One day I was experiencing a lot of emotional pain about not being able to obey God. I sat and prayed with a woman from church. After we prayed she looked up at me and said I was always telling her that we had no free will and yet I was trying to free myself to obey God. It was a light bulb moment for me. I realized I was trying to bring myself to repentance and was failing miserably. I went home and got down on my knees and repented of my pride. God brought me to repentance. On that very same day God showed me what the cause was that kept me from being able to obey him in regard to the relationship. I was free on that day. God brought me to repentance and before that I didn't even know there was a need to repent of the pride that was keeping me a slave to sin.

I was also thinking of the years when I believed all the lies and thought it was the truth. Again I did not know I was deceived and could not at the time know I needed to repent. God had to show me truth and then bring me to repentance. It is God that drags us to repentance and changes the desire of our hearts.

pylady:
Hi,

You people blow me away, your words are so thought out and wise, and always make me think, especially when Bible vs are quoted.  Thank you all for your efforts.

Just a few thoughts I had.  If this were a site where we discussed philosophy or perhaps it would be psycology we'd have to ask the following questions.
Did we choose who are parents are, or where we were born.  Did we choose to allow only those outside bits of information that we are bombarded with daily, perhaps millions of bits of info that our brain processes even though we may not be aware of it.  When we watch tv, read something, listen to the radio, talk to someone, even see billboards our brains are busy storing that info away.  We may be blissfully unaware that we are constantly absorbing and being influenced by these millions of pieces of info, but we are.  doctors say even in the womb we are absorbing information. 

We are all the result of everything that has influence us in our lives.  Who doesn't know or heard of some very nice, kind christian who is prejudiced or maybe even hates people of another race or religion or culture.  Why?  Because this is what they were taught all there lives and it seems right and "normal" to them. 

Rather than have free will (which, or course, is what I was taught)  it seemed to me that we are under attack from birth on by the whims and lies and false information (of course, it's not all lies and false information) that we are fed a steady diet of.  It takes great wisdom to separate the true from the false.  For all my trying my whole life, I was not able to do it of my own "free will". 

So if we were dicussing philosophy I'd be feeling pretty hopeless right now that I have been shaped by so many things outside of my control.

What a wonderful liberating experience it has been to know that I don't have to use my will to find God, and to know Him, but that He has willed me to know Him.  That it is His spirit that can shape me and overcome any and all harmful influences in my life. 

I gladly give up any idea of free will which I don't have anyway, to let His will be done be done in my life.

With Christian love,

                Cindy

mari_et_pere:
I have another way to see this maybe. My sis called me today. She's having a hard time and wanted someone to talk to, and I'm brother slash therapist you see. Well, she was talking about how this person acts this way, and another acts that way, and she herself feels this and that, and I explained this the best I could think of to her.
I'm a good example of it. I'm a pretty shy dude, not very outgoing. Why? I didn't choose that; in fact it drives me a little crazy sometimes, it really bothers me here and there. BUT....that's how I am. That's how my brain was made to work BY GOD when he created me. My wife's a good example: her heart is so huge, so loving and caring that she has trouble saying no to anyone who asks for something. She'll go so far out her way for people that it strains her whole day. Later she'll say "Why in the world did I just drive 2 hours, waste gas, yada yada......" It's because God made her mind work that way. Her heart is golden.
I don't choose to be shy or awkward. Trust me I don't LOL! But I am. And I don't know how many times I've heard my wife on the phone say "Okay I'll help" and then as soon as she's hung up she realizes what she got herself into. She'll say, "Why did I say yes?" Because circumstances prompted her to.

Everyone of us think a little differently. We're much like snowflakes in a way; no two are exactly alike. My mind will work totally different in a given situation than yours. I guarantee it! (or your money back.) Just the way your mind works affects the judgements and decisions, and ultimately the action that you take.

Another way to look at the free will argument is stop looking through YOUR eyes with YOUR emotions with YOURSELF as the centerpiece. Look at the BIG PICTURE. Like my example of me driving to work, through construction, running late, being stressed and all that.......the whole world does stuff like that. Everyday. People cross paths with others by accident, and it's just snowballs every second of everyday and night. Billions of people! How awesome, how frighteningly awesome, is our God to be able to control all of that? Woah. I don't think I could control two radio-controlled cars at the same time, let alone 6.5 billion people, cars, animals, nature, and all the other factors that shape our everyday. Think about it too hard and you'll get dizzy......

Anyone who hasn't quite grasped the free will thing yet, let me tell ya.........I was on the verge of it for a long, long time. Way before I ever heard of this forum I wondered if free will was actually free indeed. I'm talking like when I was a young teen, about 15-20 years ago. So I watched the world, thought and dwelled on it. (That's what I do all the time.....think and dwell on stuff.) Most people think it's a waste of time. Let me tell ya........think about it. Trust me. It will dawn on you and you'll be like WOAH I THINK I REALIZE WHAT THEY MEAN NOW! Not many you ever tell will understand and they'll think you're a fruitloop, but who cares if they aren't as "enlightened" or whatever as you? :-)

Matt

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