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Difinition of "Hell"

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CDJ:

--- Quote from: mari_et_pere on May 16, 2007, 09:22:46 AM ---You guys aren't considering that King James actually made the King James Bible right?

Matt

--- End quote ---

Hi Matt,
I don't believe anybody does. Do you rememeber that movie, TROY? Achilles (Brad Pitt) stands before the king, after the beach of Troy was taken, and although Achilles' men took it, the king himself claimed victory, because it's the king's name that lives on, not Achilles'.

Brett,

Regarding the old word "hell". Kat laid out the amount of times that this word "hell" was translated in the KJV. You'll be pleasantly surprised to check out any and all translations that you can find, and hardly any of them have the same amount of "hells" in either the OT or NT. That confirms suspicion regarding this word "hell", and confirms what we learn here on BT. If "hell" was such a sure-fire name ('scuse the pun), surely all translations would have been in agreement where to use it. Take a name like "Moses" - do translations disagree?

Here's something else I found, out of interest. If this word "hell" is regarded as about 400 years old, and branching of from the word "helan", where did it come from, to say "hell"? Well, throughout my studies, I came upon Norse Mythology, well-over 400 years old, and in this pagan mythology was a god by the name of Loki. Aparantly he was made of fire. Now this Loki character had a daughter, the goddess of torment and punishment - guess what her name was? Her name was Hel...

She, Hel, was ruler of the place with her same name, Hel. Here's what Wikipedia says regarding the realm of Hel, in Norse Mythology...

--- Quote ---Wikipedia - Hel (Realm)
In Norse mythology, the realm Hel[1] shares a name with its ruler, Hel. As described in Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda it is a place thronged with the shivering and shadowy spectres of those who have died ingloriously of disease or in old age. Hel is also home to dishonourable people who have broken oaths... ...Hel is said to be a hall with a roof woven from the spines of serpents which drip poison down onto those who wade in the rivers of blood below. The people who dwell in the halls are given nothing but goat's urine to quench their thirst... ...It is similar to Hades and the River Styx from Greek mythology. The name Hel comes from the same Proto-Germanic source as the English word hell...
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---Wikipedia - Hades
...Early church fathers defended this view of the afterlife against the view that the soul went immediately to heaven or to hell after the death of the body[4]... ...In mainstream Western Christianity, however, it has largely been replaced by the concept of the soul going straight to hell, heaven, or (in Roman Catholicism) purgatory...
--- End quote ---

The word "hell" and the "eternal punishment" smells of paganism. Under 'Universalism' on Wikipedia they had the following to say...

--- Quote ---Wikipedia - Universalism
In Christianity, Universalism refers to the belief that all humans will be saved from eternal damnation or annihilation in hell. A related doctrine, apokatastasis, is the belief that all mortal beings will be reconciled to God, including Satan and his fallen angels. Universalism was a fairly commonly held view among theologians in early Christianity. The two major theologians opposing it were Tertullian and Augustine. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Cesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality, and one (Carthage or Rome) taught the endless punishment of the lost.[1] In later centuries, universalism has become very much a minority position in the major branches of Christianity, though it has a long history of prominent adherents.
--- End quote ---

Guys, this is just for interest sake, coz I don't want to take away, add or change anything that is learnt on BT. Everything boils back to the Egyptians - along the way, every little or big civilization, had it's input...

Walk strong
CDJ :-)

kudeta:


--- Quote from: CDJ ---Regarding the old word "hell". Kat laid out the amount of times that this word "hell" was translated in the KJV. You'll be pleasantly surprised to check out any and all translations that you can find, and hardly any of them have the same amount of "hells" in either the OT or NT. That confirms suspicion regarding this word "hell", and confirms what we learn here on BT. If "hell" was such a sure-fire name ('scuse the pun), surely all translations would have been in agreement where to use it. Take a name like "Moses" - do translations disagree?
--- End quote ---

I believe you are misunderstanding Brett.  He's not disagreeing with how inappropriate it is to translate the words Sheol and Hades to "Hell" today.  The modern definition makes that ridiculous.

He's asking whether the meaning of "Hell" has changed significantly in the last four hundred years, becuase if "Hell" was better aligned with its root (helan, meaning to cover or conceal) in KJ times, then it might not have been such a bad translation back then.

blessings,
 - John

TimothyVI:
You are correct Kudeta, about what Brett was asking.
I think that the translators of the KJV bible lived during the time that
hell meant to cover or conceal. But they needed one word to describe
"The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."

No word existed to adequately describe such a place so they picked a word, hell.
Then they merely changed the definition of that word to fit their needs.
The church has changed the definitions of many words over the centuries.

Strongs concordance gives us the christian definition, so it didn't take long for that to
become the accepted definition.

Tim

mari_et_pere:

--- Quote ---Matt, I am not sure what your question mean? Can you explain little bit more?

--- End quote ---

Brett,
I was just joking around because you guys were talking about the KJV and made it sound like King James was the one making the KJV, but it was just a misplaced joke. I was just kidding around. So....n/m LOL.

Matt

CDJ:
Hi Matt :-) LOL  ;D

Brett, John, Tim  :D ...that's probably why I should never open a column "Ask Dr CDJ" coz I sometimes completely miss the point  ;D


Old Bibles - Matthew 16:18... (hades)

"...et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversum eam..."
The Latin Vulgate (425)
"...And Y seie to thee, that thou art Petre, and on this stoon Y schal bilde my chirche, and the yatis of helle schulen not haue miyt ayens it...."
The Wycliffe Bible (1395)
"...And I saye also vnto the yt thou arte Peter: and apon this rocke I wyll bylde my congregacion. And the gates of hell shall not prevayle ageynst it...."
Tyndale New Testament (1526)
"...And I saie to ye: Thou art Peter, & vpo this rocke wil I builde my cogregacion: and ye gates of hell shal not preuayle agaynst it...."
Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
"...And I say also vnto thee, that thou art Peter, and vpon this rocke I wyll buylde my congregation: And the gates of hell shall not preuayle agaynst it...."
The Bishop's Bible (1568)
"...And I say also vnto thee, that thou art Peter, and vpon this rocke I will builde my Church: and ye gates of hel shal not ouercome it...."
The Geneva Bible (1587)
"...And I say also vnto thee, that thou art Peter, and vpon this rocke I will build my Church: and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it...."
King James Version (1611)
"...and I tell thee likewise, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will hereafter build my church: and death shall not prevail against it...."
Daniel Mace New Testament (1729)
"...And I say also to thee, Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it...."
Wesley's New Testament (1755)


--- Quote ---Hello (very interesting article) "...In Greek mythology, hel also happens to be in the name of Jason’s scorned wife, Helles, in the story of the Golden Fleece (which is often read as an allegory about the sun). If one pursues the Greek associations with the root hel, it is not possible to avoid its connection to the ancient Egyptian her (since the Egyptians used R and L interchangeably); that avenue of inquiry provides some puzzling but rewarding links to light and fire. To name the major one, the Egyptian name for the sun god is Heru, which could also be read Helu, connecting the Egyptian Horus with the Greek Helios (and also to our word "hero").
--- End quote ---


Pertaining to Brett's original question, whether King James (or his translators :-) ) wanted the word to mean "to conceal, hide", in my opinion, why didn't all of them just use helan?

Walk strong
CDJ :-)

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