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Trinity question .
hillsbororiver:
Hi berniekruger,
Please do not think that I am saying you believe this "apostles creed" but since you brought it up I was reminded of an exchange Ray had with a Professor (through one of his students) in regard to the historical background of the "creed."
From Robert;
My professor says hello also. He had the other students visit other web sites also. We view your web site directly in class.
But he did tell me to tell you that your doctrine is contrary to Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, D.L. Moody, Charles Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, the Fist Apostles Creed that was established in 70 A.D., but most important Jesus Christ and the Scriptures.
But your doctrine and he quotes your web site in class, goes along with Charles Taze Russell, founder of Jehovah Witness, Joseph Smith, founder of Mormon or Latter Day Saints, Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science and Sun Young Moon founder of the Unification Church.
Though you may not consider yourself a cult you have many of their doctrines that go against the Scripture and that these known cults hold fast too. He uses your material on power point slide presentation to show the manner people go completely off the Scriptures by criticizing men of the Gospel.
He asked me to ask you if you have reached the Gospel as these men on the Internet that you criticize. Or if you have led these many as they to the Lord. Your response, as the last one was, will be read in its entirety to the class.
Here is part of Ray's reply, the entirety can be read here; http://bible-truths.com/student.htm
Your professor's statement about the "Apostles' Creed" was intriguing. Established in 70 AD was it? And I suppose their is Scriptural or historical documentation to that effect? Is he choosing such an early date because he is suggesting that this creed was actually written by the Apostles?
My Encyclopaedia Britannica has this regarding the creed:
"Scholarship has shown CONCLUSIVELY that the received text given above [the one commonly recited today] is an elaboration of the baptismal creed of the Roman church in the 3rd and 4th centuries. The text of the latter has been recovered in Latin from Rufinus' commentary on the Apostles' Creed (c. 404) and in Greek from a letter sent by Marcellus of Ancyra to Pope Julius I in 340. The FACT that the Greek almost certainly represents the original is a testimony to its antiquity."
Big difference between 70 AD and the forth century AD, however. Also, if you care to note, the original rendition of this creed did not contain the words "descended to hell" as it does today. I have zero interest in "creeds." If I am to be condemned or branded as a "cult" for not believing in unscriptural, manmade "creeds," so be it! Why get bogged down with unscriptural creeds when we have GOD'S WORD?
And just how serious is that little addition, "descended to hell?" Well, as I stated in my last communication, if Christ was not REALLY DEAD during the three days and three night that He was in the tomb, but as this Apostles' Creed suggests was rather traveling about some fabled hellhole, then YOU DON'T HAVE A SAVIOR! If you students are as "demanding" as you suggest, Robert, then I wish and pray above all things that they will DEMAND THE TRUTH! Never, EVER, settle for less than the absolute Scriptural Truth!
His Peace to you,
Joe
mrsnacks:
Jesus has always existed is my understanding. He told the Pharisees that before "Abraham existed I am " right ?
So Jesus came out of the Father So He had to always be. God is eternal.
I was reading Ray's writings Kat and he said that there isn't God being referred to as Father in the OT. So isn't the OT not talking about God the Father then what is the OT referring to then ? I take it that He doesn't become Father until Jesus is born and Jesus is conceived by the Holy Spirit. Then like it is like me with my first child. I became a father when my child was born. Is that right ?
hillsbororiver:
Hi mrsnacks,
Although Jehovah of the OT and Jesus of the NT are One and the same Jehovah/Jesus did indeed have a beginning, when He came out of the Father. Adam even existed before Abraham and that does not make him "eternal." The following is also from the "Trinity" paper.
Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!
Jesus Christ said,
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!
And again:
"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."
Where do we read that someday God the Father will be SUBJECT to Christ? There is no trinity in these Biblical truths.
And again:
"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).
Where do we read in Scripture that Christ is the Head of God?
There is another profound statement in the Scriptures that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:
"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).
There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:
Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
And remember these statements concerning Jesus Christ "having a God" were made long after His resurrection and restoration back to His former glories. Today, our Lord STILL HAS A GOD! And need I repeat the fact that the God and Father of Jesus Christ DOES NOT HAVE A GOD?! And someone out there still thinks God is a equilateral trinity?
There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Father’s office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.
Please read it all here; http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
His Peace to you,
Joe
berniekruger:
--- Quote ---Please do not think that I am saying you believe this "apostles creed"
--- End quote ---
No I don't. It's just something that popped into my mind, had to google it to find the text. I have a "gospel" song in my archives based on this.
I have not read Rays article about this but as mentioned earlier, found this so called lack of belief in the trinity appeared in many other blogs, see my introduction for links and counter posts I made.
I find it just sad that people make major issues over something so irrelevant. Jesus is our Saviour, No man comes to the Father except through me and No one comes to me except the Father Draws him..(paraphrasing). Likewise details of baptism. Churches have split over these very issues.
I am not denominational and I am trying to unlearn the doctrines of man.
Bit rusty but as time goes by hopefully my posts will have more scriptural backing, just happy to be sharing again, something I like doing, been at it 14 hrs now
Luv to all
mrsnacks:
I understand that Jesus came out of the Father. But then some say that Jesus isn't an eternal being yet He is considered and worshipped as God. God by definition is eternal.
So is everyone here in agreement that Jesus is God ? Thomas worshipped Jesus by saying My Lord my God and Jesus didn't rebuke him. This is still confusing to me because if the Father is greater than Jesus and Jesus is God- then Jesus is in a way God but inferior to the Father right ?
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