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kudeta:
Darren,
I am not at all claiming that God doesn't love us.
And I'm not claiming that God hates us. I'm asking Josh if he is saying that.
blessings,
- John
YellowStone:
Oops ???
josh:
John,
I apologize for taking so long to reply... I got roped into seeing "Shrek the Third" ... it couldn't have ended soon enough. ;D
I think we should define that there is a difference between those who are "workers of iniquity" and those who God has prepared as His "elect."
Mat 22:14 For, many, are called, but, few, chosen.
Here on earth, in the physical, God has created two types of vessels... some for honor, others for dishonor.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
Notice that those who are His, that "nameth the name of Christ," DEPART FROM INIQUITY. Here lies the differences between those who are "workers of iniquity" and those who are His "elect."
Yes, "all have sinned"... but those who are "workers of iniquity" God allows them to keep on sinning, until it leads to age-abiding judgment so that they can learn righteousness (Isaiah 26:9), but those who are God's elect, He allows them to DEPART FROM INIQUITY and be brought into age-abiding life
Mat 25:46 And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.
We can sugar coat this and say that God hates the sin, but not the sinner... but it is just not scripturally accurate.
God, who is not a respecter of persons, has chosen His elect even before the world began...this may seem unfair to us, but allow me to direct our attention to the old testament where we see a type and shadow of this in the story of Jacob and Esau... here is an instance where even before these two men were born, God had chosen them each for a purpose... one to love, the other to hate.
Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith Yahweh, and yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Is not Esau, brother, to Jacob? enquireth Yahweh, Yet have I loved Jacob,
Mal 1:3 And, Esau, have I hated,— and made his mountains a desolation, and his inheritance a dwelling for the jackals of the wilderness.
All that being said... allow me to suggest a link to a transcript from one of Ray's home Bible Studies where he discussed God's love and hate:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html
Hope this helps... get back with me after you read this article, I think it will help you see what I was originally stating.
God's Peace.
Josh
kudeta:
Josh,
I'm impressed with your constitution. I don't think I could bounce back from such a movie so quickly. ;D
--- Quote from: In Medias Res ---Here on earth, in the physical, God has created two types of vessels... some for honor, others for dishonor.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
Notice that those who are His, that "nameth the name of Christ," DEPART FROM INIQUITY. Here lies the differences between those who are "workers of iniquity" and those who are His "elect."
--- End quote ---
I notice that those who are His are directed to depart from iniquity. I see nothing that suggests that they have departed.
--- Quote from: In Medias Res ---Yes, "all have sinned"... but those who are "workers of iniquity" God allows them to keep on sinning, until it leads to age-abiding judgment so that they can learn righteousness (Isaiah 26:9), but those who are God's elect, He allows them to DEPART FROM INIQUITY and be brought into age-abiding life
--- End quote ---
God's elect will depart from iniquity. We have not yet done so. We are still of flesh, still doing the very things we hate. We are still waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, but it hasn't happened, yet. We are not reborn into age-abiding life, yet. We are workers of iniquity still.
--- Quote from: In Medias Res ---We can sugar coat this and say that God hates the sin, but not the sinner... but it is just not scripturally accurate.
--- End quote ---
I have no problem with not "sugar coating" it. I have no problem with saying God hates sinners. I have a problem with singling out any group of people and saying that God hates them, as if we were not also still sinners.
--
--- Quote from: In Medias Res ---Hope this helps... get back with me after you read this article, I think it will help you see what I was originally stating.
--- End quote ---
I have read the article, and I find that it does not mention "religious folk," much less seperate them out as a category that deserves special mention of being hated by God.
Here's the thing. If your purpose was simply to correct my language, to point out that "God hates sinners" can be appropriate terminology, then I agree, and thank you for the nudge. I really am grateful for this correction, and the study it prompted.
But that's not how you presented yourself. You said:
--- Quote from: In Medias Res ---God most certainly does "hate" those who are a false witness and speak lies... and those who sow discord among the brethren. Which is a perfect definition of "religious folks"...
--- End quote ---
You didn't just say "God hates sinners." You continued with the setting apart of "religious folks" as though they possessed some distinction that earns them some distinctive kind of hate.
If we are to use the language of God hates sinners, it must be understood that the hate is directed toward the carnal mind residing in every person, and not more directed toward someone who seems to us to be "more wicked" than general humanity.
blessings,
- John
josh:
John,
We are in agreement... there is not a soul who has ever walked the face of this earth, save Jesus Christ, who has, is or will be able to depart completely from inquity in the physical.
But the "elect" will depart from inquity, before the remainder of humanity... the "elect" are being judged even now... but the remainder of humanity will not be judged/purged until the LOF.
I think I am beginning to understand our miscommunication... when I "single out" religious folks, I am not only referring to JF and others like him... I am referring to all who believe that they have "the answer"... that can include even the members of this forum, even you and I... God forbid, you or I or anyone else here would ever think that we have all of the answers and believe that we are in need of nothing while we are yet poor, wretched, naked and blind.
Here is what the scriptures say about "religious folks" specifically:
Mat 7:22 Many, will say unto me, in, that, day, Lord! Lord! did we not, in thy name, prophesy, and, in thy name, cast, demons, out,—and, in thy name, many works of power, perform?
Mat 7:23 And, then, will I confess unto them, Never, have I acknowledged you,—Depart from me, ye workers of lawlessness!
Luk 13:23 And one said unto him—Lord! are they, few, who are being saved? And, he, said unto them—
Luk 13:24 Be striving to enter through the narrow door; for, many, I say unto you, will seek to enter, and will not be able,—
Luk 13:25 when once the householder shall rouse himself, and lock the door, and ye begin to stand, outside, and to knock at the door, saying—Lord! open to us; and he shall answer and say unto you—I know you not, whence ye are.
Luk 13:26 Then, will ye begin to say—We did eat and drink in thy presence, and, in our broadways, thou didst, teach;
Luk 13:27 And he will speak, saying unto you—I know not whence ye are; Depart from me, all workers of unrighteous—
Luk 13:28 There, will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, as soon as ye see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and, yourselves, being thrust forth outside.
Luk 13:29 And they shall have come from east and west, and from north and south, and be made recline in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30 And lo! there are, last, who shall be, first, and there are, first, who shall be, last;
Are these "religious folks" not those who bare false witness? Who prophesied and did miracles (falsely) in His name? Who (falsely) cast out demons and did (false) works of power?
Let's look at the passage from proverbs again, verse by verse:
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Is it not the "religious folks" who are so proud of all of their false knowledge? Is it not the "religious folks" whose tongues are filled with lies motivated for their own gain? Is in not "the religious folks" who are so quick to say "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"?
Pro 6:18 A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Is it not the "religious folks" who devise wicked imaginations (plans that are self motivated)? Is it not the "religious folks" who are always surrounded by controversy and scandal?
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Is it not the religious folks that speak lies and deny the truth... is it not the "religious folks" who cannot keep the peace in their own churches?
Now, that all being said... let me say that I am not stating this to point the finger at anyone else but myself... I have been all of these things. I am still unbecoming all of these things. I am the "religious folks" who God hates... but one day I too will be redeemed, and I wait eagerly for that day.
God's Peace.
Josh
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