Image of Christ

[Deborah-Leigh]

To add :

Excerpts from Nashville quoting Ray:

So first of all, now you have this ugly man so why did the crowds come ? Because the loved Him? So they can get healed. It's the only reason...well one other reason...free meals. I bet the fish He multiplied were really good!...

and...

Now it says He is despised and rejected of others. A man of suffering. But the Hebrew is PAIN.  Because if we think of suffering right away we think of some spiritual thing. Now...you know...He suffered persecution...you know...things of that nature. The word is still suffering but the word is PAIN. Why was He in pain? Because He had infirmities. Is this a different Jesus that you and all were always thinking about?

As one from whom others hide their face. But that's not what it says in the Hebrew. As one who hides His face. Imagine. The Son of God. Creator of the Universe. You're in a body. Kind of ugly, diseased, infirmities, in pain. Having to go through a crowd. You wouldn't want to call attention to yourself. There is nothing here to see...you know. He was despised and we held Him of no account....and carried our diseases. Now do you understand that He was tempted in ALL ways as we. Yet without sin. And we think in once in a while a pretty girl passed Him and He had to say ...Uhhh and look the other way? NO. This is a whole lot more real than that.  He CARRIED OUR DISEASES. No He went to the cross FOR our diseases. NO! HE CARRIED THEM  IN HIS BODY.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Deborah-Leigh]

Here are two more translations that add some more perspectives on the appearance of Jesus.

Isaiah 53: Who would credit it? Who'd have foreseen this plot line in God's liberation story? He (Jesus) grew up vulnerable as a sapling in a concrete yard. Not especially attractive; nothing particularly regal about Him. He didn't stand out in a crowd, your Mr Average. He was dissed by most, given the cold shoulder by many. There was a sadness about Him. You could see in His face He was on personal terms with grief. People blocked Him out, verbally abused Him, didn't rate Him.

But whoa! Step back a sec! Weren't those OUR WEAKNESSESS He took on? Wasn't that OUR sadness HE Carried ? But we were convince HE'D been rubbed out of God's good books, punished by Him, held down by Him. How wrong can you be?! He was MESSED UP FOR OUR MESS. He was knocked down for our slip-ups. The slapping we should've got - He got. And we got serenity instead. His punishment beating left Him half-human and us whole and fully human. (Caps mine. Translation from the Word on the Street Rob Lacey)

From The Message Translation:

Who would have thought God's saving power would look like this?

The servant grew up before God - a scrawny seedling, a scrubby plant in a parched field. There was nothing attractive about Him, nothing to cause us to take a second look. He was looked down on and passed over, a man who suffered, who knew pain firsthand.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[LittleBear]

Hi Arcturus,

Thank you for posting those excerpts from Nashville. I haven't listened to it yet as I have to wait until I can get to the library. At home, I'm on dial-up and can't listen.

Also, the translation of Isaiah 53:2 from Word on the Street was really powerful to me. Is that a good translation? It seems to hit home in a way that the King James doesn't. 

Love,

Ursula

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Ursula

You ask about the translation I posted from Word on the Street.

I was using that translation to show in contemporary language that Jesus was not attractive as was so beautifully expounded by Ray at Nashville.

Where you ask whether the translation is a good one, I can say yes in as much as it shows that Jesus was not as Hollywood would have us believe. Having said that, I would not go as far as to say that the translation is good beyond that point. For instance, the translator says quote : "His punishment beating left Him half-human"....now if we take that to mean the punishment was from man, then yes it is correct and appropriate. If we take it to mean that God punished His Son, ( which the translation leaves very little room for ) then that is heresy and blasphemy! That point just might not be too clear to some that's all. God did not ever pour out any wrath on His Precious Son in whom He was most pleased! So yes, for me, the translation is good!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[skydreamers]

Hi everyone,

In thinking about this thread, it became a powerful thought to me to imagine Jesus as a child.  We all know how cruel children can be, and with the "questionable" birth, the community would have rejected him also on that basis alone. 

Did anyone see the movie "The Nativity"?  It really hit me the way this movie portrayed the reactions and condemning looks towards Mary, as her pregnancy was questionable to many no doubt.  There was likely this stigma that Jesus carried around with him as well.  On top of that, to be even unattractive or sickly looking...what abuse must he have suffered at the hands of other jeering children or even adults? 

Isaiah 52:14
His appearance was marred more than any man, And His form more than the sons of men.

marred:

BDB Definition:
1) disfigurement (of face), corruption


If Jesus was disfigured right from birth, then it strikes me that it is highly possible, that even as a child, Jesus was experiencing what millions of children in this world experience...abuse, scorn and rejection. 

We do not read much of Jesus' relationship with his father.  Is it possible this relationship was estranged?  Was he rejected by his earthly father?  How did his brothers treat him when they were children?  Look at Joseph, he was thrown into a pit by his own brothers!  Of course, the scriptures don't give us much information about Jesus as a child, so we are left to our own imaginations.  But I just know how the world can be, and how people can act towards the rejected of society.  I'm thinking of a recent thread posted by Joe about his daughter, and the struggle she has in getting her challenged students treated with some respect and attention.  Would it have been any different in Jesus' day? 

But in the end, all this just confirms how intimately Jesus knows all of man's sorrows and pains...

Isaiah 53:3 Amp
He was despised and rejected and forsaken by men, a Man of sorrows and pains, and acquainted with grief and sickness; and like One from Whom men hide their faces He was despised, and we did not appreciate His worth or have any esteem for Him.

Psalms 139:3 Amp
You sift and search out my path and my lying down, and You are acquainted with all my ways.


Peace,
Diana

[LittleBear]

Hi Diana,

I like to think that Joseph was a decent man, but even so, with the pressures of society at the time, his relationship with Jesus could have been strained. We just don't know, but it would certainly add to Jesus' suffering. Childhood issues are so difficult.

I saw The Nativity, and it brought me to tears.

Love,
Ursula

[Kat]

Since there was mention of Jesus' earthly father Joseph here, I had recently read in eSword about him.  I thought this was interesting so I wanted to bring this out.  It seems that Joseph may have died fairly early in Jesus' life. 

Fausset's Bible Dictionary --------------------------

James, Joses, Simon, and Judas mentioned in Mat.13:56 being literally His brothers, born of Joseph and Mary.

The statement that His "brethren did not believe in Him" (John 7:5) may refer to His near relations generally, excepting the two apostles James (who is expressly called "the Lord's brother," Gal 1:19) and Jude (Jude 1:1).
In Acts 1:14 His "brethren," as distinct from the apostles, may refer to Simon and Joses and other near relatives. It is not likely there would be two pairs of brothers named alike, of such eminence; James and Jude. His brethren are, most probably, the writers of the epistles.
If Joseph had been their father, they would have been some (one time at least) designated in the usual mode "sons of Joseph."

It is expressly stated that Mary, wife of Cleophas and sister of the virgin Mary (John 19:25), had sons, of whom James and Joses are named (Mat 27:56; Mark 15:40). How unlikely that two mothers of the same name, Mary the virgin and her sister, should have sons also bearing the same names.

Joseph is mentioned as with Mary in presenting the Babe in the temple and as "marvelling at those things spoken of" Jesus by Simeon, and as "blessed" by him. Lastly, when Jesus was taken at 12 years of age to the temple and tarried behind, Joseph and His mother knew not of it; and Mary on finding Him said, "Thy father and I have sought Thee sorrowing."
He replied, "Wist ye not that I must be about My Father's business?" Henceforward there is no more mention of the earthly father.
If the virgin Mary had had sons of her own, Jesus would not have given her in charge to John (John 19:26), who was not a relative.
The naming of Jesus' brethren with His virgin mother so often may be because Jesus and she took up their abode at the home of Mary, the Virgin's sister, after Joseph's death; for that he soon died appears from his name being never mentioned after Luke 2. Hence the cousins would grow up as brothers.
----------------------------------------------------------

Just thought this would be of some interest 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[GODSown1]

wow!!!! man! dis is "ALL GOOD!" "GOOD like GOD!", and very new 2 me, I so LOVE! it all, as Ive cum 2 LOVE!! U all on dis Forum Uz r alL so Amazing!, PRAISE the LORD! 4 all da knowledge uz all posess & share so we may all get da Wisdom needed 2 spread our FATHERS WORD of TRUTHS! n the Mighty! namE of our LORD & our SAVIOR! Thank You sO! much JESUS! Amen & Amen!
      much much muchLOVE!! Pera

[Kat]

Hi Pera,

You are an encourament to us all 
Be sure to check the pics in introductions and announments.  I found these and they were so amazing I wanted to share them, and Ray's talks, at the conference went in this direction a good bit.
Here's a link.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4473.0.html

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Patrick]

Thank you for posting those excerpts from Nashville. I haven't listened to it yet as I have to wait until I can get to the library. At home, I'm on dial-up and can't listen.
Love,

Ursula

Ursula, I'm also on dial-up, so I save/download all the audio to My Documents. Yes, it takes some time, but worth the wait in my opinion.

[YellowStone]

Since there was mention of Jesus' earthly father Joseph here, I had recently read in eSword about him.  I thought this was interesting so I wanted to bring this out.  It seems that Joseph may have died fairly early in Jesus' life. .......

Kat, that was VERY interesting and I think is yet another important piece of understanding that fits into the the sometimes confusing "jigsaw" of understanding.

The picture looks awesome

Love,
Darren

[skydreamers]

Kat, thank you for sharing what you found out about Joseph.  That was really interesting.

Peace,
Diana

[LittleBear]

Hi Patrick,

Ursula, I'm also on dial-up, so I save/download all the audio to My Documents. Yes, it takes some time, but worth the wait in my opinion.

I didn't know I could do that. Thanks very much, I'll try it!

Ursula

[jER]

Hello All...

In the beginning of this thread two things struck me..."Jesus wept."
Then, three other things, also struck home..."So do I."

In His Love and mine - Jer

[GODSown1]

Hi Kat,
        Well I dont no if ur sick of hearing dis lol!, But! U r such an encouragment not Only 2 mE But! 2 US all here in da Forum, I Pray! GODBLESSES U wit more & more Knowledge & Understanding everyday!, so den WE wilL all learn moRe! lol!, U r a Blessing! 2 my liFe! I just Thank da LORD! WholeHeartedly! 4 ur OrsuM! input!, az GOS WilL b dun on Earth az I now! NO it is, az I read frm da Forum every ones knowledge GOD Given so WE all wilL learn & apply 2 our Lives, az HE is in CONTROL AlwaYZ!!.
  much muchLOVE!! Pera
ps. Kat its just cum frm da Heart! Thank YOU FATHER!

[skydreamers]

Pera...I second that!



Peace,
Diana

[Kat]

Hi Pera,

That was really sweet 
I am so glad to be of help here, it is just a wonderful place to be.

Thanks Diana.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Mat 11:27  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mat 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mat 11:29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Mat 11:30  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

What a glorious and joyful thing to contemplate, being "conceived" into this Family! To have the hope and promise to one day be fully born (at the resurrection) as a Son or Daughter into the Kingdom of God, a true heir to this Kingdom. Praise God!

The realization of the real depth of our Lord's humility and sacrifice was truly a revelation but it also struck me deeply when Ray pointed out that this was also a mirror Image of the Father's humility and Spirit of sacrifice. He brought up the point; "What parent would not trade places with a sick or suffering child, even enough to trade places in a life or death situation?" God the Father has a more perfect Love than any earthly parent, He suffered as Christ suffered. Wow!

This was a true Eureka! moment, at least for me it was.

Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.

Joh 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him and have seen him.

Joh 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father and it sufficeth us.

Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

You said this Joe :  To have the hope and promise to one day be fully born (at the resurrection) as a Son or Daughter into the Kingdom of God, a true heir to this Kingdom. Praise God!

I find there is so much to distract AWAY from that HOPE. So many times there is something to take my eyes off this hope and then I do not hit the wall.....the wall hits me! Afterwards....then....hope returns and assures that life is all about HOPE!...

The Anchor to that Hope of course is Christ. Without HIM we are adrift....undone, unravelled and hopeless!

Thank you for your thoughts.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Arcturus,

I am sure this journey is full of stumbles and falls but He keeps reaching down to pull us back up!

My prayer is the stumbles and falls become fewer and farther in between.

Thank you for the response.

His Peace to you,

Joe