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A question of NT emphasis
skydreamers:
Hi Tom,
Firstly I want to say
It's always a joy to see more people seeking for the truth!
I sympathize with your struggles. I personally think that a lot of words used in scripture have both negative and positive sides to them. And one or the other is emphasized more depending on where we are at. Right now, you are struggling to see the positive but likely from years of these words being used for the purpose of fear on you, it has left a dark "veil" over your eyes. Your heart clearly shows you desire to know the truth, and as God is faithful, and as He is the one who has set you on this path and put these questions inside you, He will give you the answers in due time.
I also have come to think that God has purposely made the scriptures a mystery to understand, because if it were simple and physically logical, than we would give our carnal minds credit for understanding. When we see the truths so clearly and simply, it is because supernaturally God has given us sight (and understanding). Then we truly exclaim...."How did I not see this before?" And we know it is because God's holy spirit has led us to the truth, and not because we somehow figured it out with our own power. But at the same time, God bids us to reason with Him, and to dig for his treasures as if they were silver or God. If they were easily accessible on a surface reading.....than why would we even have to dig??
You have done much digging already...and I sense God is preparing to give you the answers you are seeking.
Also, there is the danger of some Universalists thinking that God is going to deal lightly with sin....I've heard of people who think Universalism is just an excuse for "greasy grace" allowing them to live perverted lives. God must make it extremely apparent to our carnal minds that we "reap what we sow" and that He certainly is a God of justice.
It is the nature of the beast to take advantage on a parent that treads too lightly and softly when it comes to discipline.
And God is a passionate God, who is jealous for us. He will go to extremes that our minds can't even comprehend to gather the one sheep that has gone astray. 99 is just not enough for Him, who needs ALL of His children reconciled to Him, else He simply would not be complete.
But there is much evidence that after all this passionate "wrath" at the unrighteousness and sin of the world, the Lord will gather us and speak tenderly. The pursuing of our hearts by God, the Husband that never gives up going after His whoring wife, is a kind of Love that NO ONE will ultimately be able to resist. Which of us is not sincerely, in our deepest depths, desiring for such a Love? When God reveals the truth of this kind of Love for us, then truly every knee will bow in awe.
Hosea 2:5-13
5 For their mother has played the whore; she who conceived them has acted shamefully. For she said, 'I will go after my lovers, who give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, my oil and my drink.'
6 Therefore I will hedge up her way with thorns, and I will build a wall against her, so that she cannot find her paths.
7 She shall pursue her lovers but not overtake them, and she shall seek them but shall not find them. Then she shall say, 'I will go and return to my first husband, for it was better for me then than now.'
8 And she did not know that it was I who gave her the grain, the wine, and the oil, and who lavished on her silver and gold, which they used for Baal.
So then we have God's anger as He by necessity must punish....
9 Therefore I will take back my grain in its time, and my wine in its season, and I will take away my wool and my flax, which were to cover her nakedness.
10 Now I will uncover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and no one shall rescue her out of my hand.
11 And I will put an end to all her mirth, her feasts, her new moons, her Sabbaths, and all her appointed feasts.
12 And I will lay waste her vines and her fig trees, of which she said, 'These are my wages, which my lovers have given me.' I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall devour them.
13 And I will punish her for the feast days of the Baals when she burned offerings to them and adorned herself with her ring and jewelry, and went after her lovers and forgot me, declares the LORD.
But is this where it ends? Is this the only way God deals with his creatures, and that's it? Should the emphasis remain here? I don't believe so, because here is what follows immediately after...
Hosea 2:14-23
14 "Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak tenderly to her.
15 And there I will give her her vineyards and make the Valley of Achor a door of hope. And there she shall answer as in the days of her youth, as at the time when she came out of the land of Egypt.
16 "And in that day, declares the LORD, you will call me 'My Husband,' and no longer will you call me 'My Baal.'
17 For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more.
18 And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety.
19 And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy.
20 I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the LORD.
21 "And in that day I will answer, declares the LORD, I will answer the heavens, and they shall answer the earth,
22 and the earth shall answer the grain, the wine, and the oil, and they shall answer Jezreel,
23 and I will sow her for myself in the land. And I will have mercy on No Mercy, and I will say to Not My People, 'You are my people'; and he shall say, 'You are my God.'"
A child who receives senseless beatings from a father, will recoil in fear at words of anger. But a child who knows and trusts that all discipline and punishment is coming from the heart of LOVE itself, will know that these things are for good, and though they hear the words of anger, they will in their hearts hear also the words of Love that "speaks tenderly" in the aftermath of punishment.
For those of us, who God has given these precious truths to, though we acknowledge the justice judgments of God, our emphasis lies in the redeeming Love of not only a Father, but a Husband who is not fashioning for himself a maidservant, but a BRIDE. A bride, nonetheless, who spent an age of time pursuing other lovers. Yet our Husband does not give up but endlessly seduces and courts His love. Our God does not divorce His bride!
Matthew 19:7-8
7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?"
8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
Tom, if I may kindly say, I believe the "emphasis" you speak of is filtered yet through the carnal mind that yet cannot embrace the unfailing Love of our Father. And if so, that's okay...it is where God has you right now, but clearly He is bringing you through a process to show you greater things, and speak to you with spiritual words of comfort.
All the theological exegesis in the world will not reveal to you the simple and profound Love of a Father, Husband, Brother, Mother, Lover and Friend who does not have a fickle love as we do.
The seeking of God's true heart of Love is your answer to all things.
May God grant you wisdom in your studies, and I pray you find safety in His Love, sooner than later :) ;)
All peace and love to you, in Christ,
Diana
Tom:
Hi Diana,
Comforting words indeed!
Perhaps you are right. At the end of the day all my questions may yet be resolved in a deeper revelation of the Father's love. If this be so then I'm confident that will come.
I acknowledge that I'm passing through a season of the inward workings of His love, and it is evident to me that due to a variety of early and not so early life experiences, entirely resting in and trusting His love has always been a struggle for me.
I have a son who took his life at age 30, after spending several years in drugs and crime, yet having been raised in Church. I now recognize the Babylonian institutions of man were an unhealthy place to raise my family and conduct my ministry, but thanks to His grace and revelation we have all come out. Perhaps coming out and having the vestiges of it completely removed from us are still two different things. I know I long to have an absolute certainty that my son is where I believe he will be...safe in the arms of Christ, free from all bondage, argument, and rebellion.
To be very honest with you, while the apparent emphases of the NT writers, when addressing the issue of final judgments, seems entirely lacking in hope, when I look up into the face of Christ all I can see is mercy these days. While I am not ready to say that I completely embrace the UR position, I can say that I simply cannot imagine the visions of Mary K Baxter to be of God. I have long felt that if God anticipated that even one soul would love and serve Him while believing He was going to place the majority of humanity in an endless torment of Hell, that such anticipation would be in complete failure of recognition that man makes choices based on the perceived worthiness of the object believed in.
While I know that many appear to have come to faith as a result of a fear of Hell, in the end, and when interogated in more depth, I believe those who maintain a valid walk with Him do so far more out of a belief that He is good and loving, than because they are afraid of going to Hell. It has troubled me to hear the theological pontifications of those who maintain the endless Hell doctrine, when asked how they relate that to what they understand of the love of God, that their answer is that what they cannot conceive or imagine here will be resolved when they have the full mind of Christ in eternity. In other words, they anticipate being able to comprehend the magnitude of His endless judgments on mankind as being a good thing, and in no way a violation of His goodness and love, once their carnal mind has been given full light and seen the fullness of justice. Somehow that has never set well with me. They would say the same thing to me that you have...I.e. when I have more revelation I will see how His justice is not in violation of His love, and an endless Hell will be appropriate in light of His rejected provision.
I guess we'll see how God works, in terms of resolving these matters in my mind, but while I am inclined towards the UR position I am still not settled there.
One friend of mine envisions the conclusion of these matters in the annihilationist position. I agree it has some merit, but is much more difficult to see in scripture.
Thanks again for your explanation.
Seeking His light...
Tom
Tom:
Diana,
In my previous reply I didn't want to detract from my appreciation for your comments, but I realized I would like to return to my original question of the forum, and ask you once again - "As you look over the NT writers, as they directly address the issue of future judgments, do you see them approaching this theme with optimism about the outcomes of those who leave this life unsettled with Christ, and if so where, if not, why do you think they don't?"
Thank you again!
Tom
Kat:
Hi Tom,
I think it is this age that we are in, that is a time of darkness, when the knowledge of the truth is a mystery to most.
Mar 4:11 And He said to them, To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. But to those outside, all these things are given in parables
v. 12 so that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
I believe this age is for the purpose for mankind to have an experience of learning good and evil. All are given this experience to learn from it, so all will have a knowledge of evil.
God has not given this comprehension to most, I think this is one of the mysteries that only a very few come the realize.
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. (CLV)
So it is God's plan and purpose for mankind to have a wicked heart, too weak to resist tempation.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?
Mar 14:38 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
And after this age, is the age when Christ will rule with righteousness. And all will be raised to judgment. This judgment from which so many have wrongly determined to be eternal, will be to purge and cleanse the wickedness out of mankind.
Rom 14:12 So then each one of us will give account concerning himself to God.
Isa 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; there shall not be a coal to warm them; nor fire, to sit before it.
Heb 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like fire, declares the LORD, and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
So the way I see it, you have God/His word as a fire that burns the evil out of mankind, in judgment. I can understand that the heat of the correction will be tormenting to many, if not most.
But the outcome will produce righteouness. All will then learn the truth. All will have this life experience of this age of darkness, to compare and appreciate the knowledge of the truth.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night; my spirit within me earnestly seeks you. For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
I hope this is helpful :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
pylady:
Hi Tom,
Welcome to the forum!
If I understand your question correctly you wonder why the Scriptures don't make it clearer to mankind that God's plan is to bring salvation to all. You feel that the Scriptures emphasize the negative side of judgment rather than the positive outcome.
Perhaps part of the answer is that the majority of mankind was not meant to understand God's plan in this age. When the disciples questioned Jesus as to why He spoke in parables Jesus told them in Matt 13:11 "Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom but to them it is not given."
This age is for the gathering of the elect who receive God's spirit to understand these mysteries. Eph 1:9 "He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him." The "us" are the elect, who receive God's spirit to open their eyes to the truth written in His word. To those whose eyes have been open the words of Scripture are not negative, but full of mercy and love for a glorious future for all mankind - being made into His image!
In Ray's LOF series, Part 4, I believe, Ray brings out that Jesus spoke to the masses in parables that they couldn't understand because He did not want them to understand, repent, be converted, healed and saved AT THAT TIME!
Most of humanity will be kept in the dark, and will literally see God's judgments as darkness untill God reveals His will to them after they die and are resurrected to judgment.
Anyway, I don't know if I added anything here, but just what came to my mind reading your questions.
Keep reading and keep questioning. Questions make us all think. Thanks for the questions.
With Christian love,
Cindy
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