> General Discussions
A question of NT emphasis
Joey Porter:
--- Quote from: Tom on June 24, 2007, 12:27:02 PM ---I have been carefully studying the theme of Universal Reconciliation, both in L. Ray Smith's writings, and Gary Amirault's writings, as well as many others, and I have a few questions for those who write here. I'll preface my comments with saying this, while I have some reservations on this theme, my questions are not borne of some desire to argue, debate, or wrangle with anyone. They are serious and genuine questions. I hope they will be received as such. I'm new here...
I've carefully considered all the word studies surrounding Olam, Aionios, judgment, the lake of fire, and Gehenna, and I'm concerned with a few conclusions, but my mind is not set in stone. Having studied and taught the original languages has given me a unique opportunity to research these words, and in many cases I'm very supportive of the insights I see in the UR writings, but in some cases I wrestle with whether word meanings have been a bit stretched to support emphases I don't see clearly referenced in the scriptures.
While I too question the "endless" nature of future judgments, based on these words and themes, where I'm unsettled is the "apparent emphasis" of both OT and NT scriptures as relates to these themes.
I understand that fire is often symbolic of purification, and judgment often leads to growth and maturity, but it seems that saying these two themes "always" lead in these directions seems to miss the emphasis in scripture.
When both OT and NT writers write of these themes, if they clearly had a positive and hope filled view of the ages to come, why do they, when discussing judgment, not express their optimism towards positive and redemptive outcomes? In other words, it seems they consistently miss their logical opportunities to present a salvational view of the coming ages, in the sense of describing "how" the judgments and fires will bring forth a saved company of redeemed ones. Why do you think they fail to "clearly" discuss such an optimistic viewpoint?
If the writers of scripture truly believed that souls would be redeemed through the judgment process, why don't we see them coming right out and saying this? Why don't we see them emphasizing or describing anyone having come through the fires of judgment and out the other side saved and praising God?
Why does it appear that their emphasis is on the fearfulness of judgments, the awesomeness of His holiness confronting the sinful rejection of man, rather than emphasizing the hope of those who leave this life unsaved being saved through the process of judgment? Why do they seem to leave an impression of the finality of man's decisions towards rejection of Christ in this life? If they didn't think of these decisions as indeed "final" why do you think they left the impression that they did?
I'd love to get this resolved in my mind, but I'm genuinely stuck at this point.
I'd appreciate knowing how some of you have worked through this issue of "emphasis."
Thanks!
Tom
--- End quote ---
Hi Tom.
You are asking for examples of NT writings that can show further hope for the salvation of all men. But there is something important to remember. We can also use types and shadows in the OT to reveal to us the truths of God's plan for mankind. I firmly believe that everything, every minute detail in the OT (and NT for that matter), has a spiritual meaning that can give us deeper understanding of God's Kingdom.
The best OT type I have seen for the salvation of all men is the story of Joseph and his brothers (Genesis 37-50). I'm sure you are probably familiar with the story, but pay particular attention to the way in which Joseph treated his brothers, who had wronged him, toward the end of Genesis.
In Joseph, there are many types and shadows of Christ. And in the story of the enmity between him and his brothers, there are many types and shadows of how God will deal with those who persecute Him and those who hold to His words.
Did Joseph's brothers go through torment? You bet they did. But when they found themselves in a position to rely on Joseph for food, and for mercy, how did he treat them?
Remember Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for not seeing and understanding that the scriptures (which at that time would have been our current Old Testament) testified of Him. (John 5:39)
Even Jesus' disciples were completely blind and ignorant of what the scriptures meant, even while they went about with Him preaching the gospel of the kingdom! (Luke 24:25-27)
You ask, ''If the writers of scripture truly believed that souls would be redeemed through the judgment process, why don't we see them coming right out and saying this?''
The answer to that is because God does not want to make that obvious. Think about it - why didn't the OT prophecies simply state "There will be a man who will be crucified on a cross and raised on the third day for the sins of the world?"
Because that is not the way God has chosen to reveal His Truths to mankind. He keeps His Truths hidden. Jesus spoke in parables to hide the truth from people - not for any other reason.
That is why we have supposedly over 20,000 denominations of Christianity. Because the Truth is hidden from the masses, and carnal man, reading the scriptures with his carnal mind, can see just about anything he wants to see in the bible. But this is the way in which God has chosen to work. (Luke 12:51)
So, if you're looking for a passage or a grouping of passages that make the truth of the salvation of all men obvioius, you will not find any. But that's where faith comes into play.
The sole fact alone that such faulty translations for words such as "sheol," "hades," and "gehenna" are casually accepted and believed by so many millions, including theologians and pastors, should be a clear sign that there is something wrong with the "eternal hell" doctrine.
I am more than certain that if you keep seeking and searching this out, there will come a time when you have no doubts about Christ's validity as the Savior of all mankind. :)
skydreamers:
Hi Tom,
--- Quote ---I have a son who took his life at age 30, after spending several years in drugs and crime, yet having been raised in Church
--- End quote ---
My deepest sympathies go out to you. I see where your concerns are rooted, and my prayers will be with you that you will find the peace you need concerning this.
I do know this:
Matthew 5:4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
I apologize for seemingly sideskirting your original question about NT writers. I do believe there was optimism among the NT writers regarding future judgments, but perhaps it is not as straightforward as we would expect.
I consider these things:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
There is a conitinual expresssion that our HOPE is the resurrection:
1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Paul exclaims:
Acts 23:6
6 I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!
And Peter says:
1 Peter 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Here are some scriptures that show the importance of our hope in the fact that we will all be resurrected:
1 Corinthians 15:16-23
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
So each man in his order. There is yet an end coming. What is this end? I refer you to Ray's article: http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html
(Scroll about a third of the way down and start reading from the heading:
THE THREE FESTIVALS AND THE SALVATION OF ALL)
Now some may say, this is hope of the resurrection belongs to only those "in Christ". Yet the focus of Paul's hope is in "the resurrection", and we know that there is a resurrection of the just and unjust.
Acts 24:15
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
What are the unjust resurrected to?
Daniel 12:2
2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion"(aversion, abhorrence)
Certainly there will be a time of abhorring the sins committed once we realize the full truth.
John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Since you have already studied out what "judgment" is then surely you believe the scripture when it says:
Isaiah 26:9
For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
Do you agree then that your son surely will be resurrected? And if so, then the only question that remains is in which resurrection will he find himself. From what you say, it may seem that he will be in that resurrection to judgment. But from the scripture in Isaiah we see that this will lead to him LEARNING RIGHTEOUSNESS!
Matthew 12:18-21
18 "Behold My Child whom I have chosen; My Beloved, in whom My soul is well pleased. I will put My Spirit on Him, and He shall declare judgment to the nations.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry, nor shall any one hear His voice in the streets.
20 He will not break a bruised reed, and He will not quench a smoking wick, until He sends out judgment TO VICTORY.
21 And in His name the nations shall trust."
And what about this?
Matthew 12:41-42
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment yet they repented? Why is that?
Because:
Hebrews 11:13
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 because God had provided something better for us, so that APART FROM US they should not be made perfect.
Your son shall be made perfect, but not apart from the Elect, whoever they may be. The Elect will have a hand in teaching the inhabitants of the earth righteousness. You and I may become the teachers, or we may be the ones yet who have to learn in the resurrection to judgment. You may be teaching your son, or you may come up with him and learn along side him.
This is what I believe the NT teaches, and what greater hope and optimism is there, than that all the earth will learn righteousness and therefore be with God in His intimate family.
Revelation 15:4
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for ALL NATIONS shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Revelation 22:1-3
1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
Revelation 22:17
17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
All our hope lies in the resurrection. If not for that, than all will perish, good and bad alike.
I hope you will find some comfort in these scriptures.
May God grant you peace,
Diana
jER:
First comes the Physical (knowledge), than the Spiritual (understanding)...
"Faith is not merely believing God can, it's knowing that He Will"
All Will come to the knowledge of the truth in (His) time.
And, Welcome Tom - In His Love and ours!
- jER
Tom:
To each of you,
Outstanding replies! The replies of true love and compassion. All are received as such!!
I know that Jesus veiled His truths to those who were not yet ready to receive them. Perhaps this is so for me as well. I am one who has been being trained to move from a cerebral approach to things to a spirit approach, and as such I believe His process in this direction is at work within me.
As I mentioned...I do not consider myself to "know" but to be one "seeking to know."
Many of the scriptures quoted, especially by Diana, have a powerful impact, when seen together. I want to see beyond that which the natural mind can see, and in some areas of my walk I know I do. I admit that there are some aspects of the things Ray and each of you speak that seem a bit beyond my reach to apprehend and accept, but, as I said before, when my spirit looks into His face I believe I see what my mind is still trying to catch up with...I.e. an amazing love and grace, able to overcome all obstacles. Perhaps with more time, prayer, study, and light, I will settle that what I think my spirit sees is indeed the truth.
Thanks to each of you for your caring words and patience with my struggles.
Tom
Deborah-Leigh:
Tom
Please accept my deep condolances for the wound you carry for the loss of your son. Non can know or comprehend what such pain this means unless you have endured and suffered the same. Ray lost his son. My husband lost his son. I was widowed in my twenties. I know of one other member here in the Forum who also lost a son in parallel circumstances that you briefly describe. Tom...you are not alone!
I want to say to you than non can do the work for you that the Lord has delegated you to do. Non can do the walk we have to walk. Of course you know this. I do not mean to trivialise your maturity or place where you are right now in your search.
Paul would have gladly traded places for his flock for them to know Christ. He could not do that but he suffered for his yearning that they come to comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God.
You are looking at emphasis. There is a section in Rays teachings that touch on Absolute v/s Relative in Rays paper on this link : http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm It has some bearing on your "emphasis" that we are all pointing you towards cracking! ;D
Did you read the links I suggested already? You speak of understanding the concept of eternal with reservation? Why? Perhaps you have to read each line again and discern where and when you spirit rebels or recoils or simply refuses to accept and then....nail it! Free will is a myth. Have you grasped that concept fully. Hell is pagan. You seem okay with that.
Also the bible does not go beyond what will happen when God is all in all!....Why should it? We have still much to learn to just get comfortable with the basics! :D
We have to get firmly in the saddle of Gods Sovereignty, Myth of mans Free will, we have to disengage from laws and get comfortable with Divine influences on our hearts and THEN....MAYBE...we can expect to see and know more and be ready! You say you have read Ray's materials....yet you freely acknowledge you are not in complete affirmation of what you have read. Now that is a good place to start by getting the bigger picture first and then return to nettles that may brush out within the scope of wider vision and deeper understanding. ALL THIS is from GOD! He knows exactly where you are and why and when it will change!
John 16 : 12 I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them upon you or to grasp them now.
The above words apply to all of us. We first have to come to be able to "bear" the truth the Christ can show us, and then we have to take that truth upon ourselves and to grasp it! For me that is a life time process! :) :D and before any of that can happen we have to repent. That too is a gift from God.
Ray talks about this in his audios with the clarity and message of wisdom that only God can inspire.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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