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A question of NT emphasis

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Tom:
Arcturus,

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement.  Received!


--- Quote ---You are looking at emphasis. There is a section in Rays teachings that touch on Absolute v/s Relative in Rays paper on this link : http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm It has some bearing on your "emphasis" that we are all pointing you towards cracking!
--- End quote ---

In reading over Ray's approach to Calvinism, plus the UR position, I did indeed find it a fascinating approach.  It has the feeling of rounding out Calvin's teaching.  Of course Calvin was not UR, so his approach was to see God sovereignly choosing some, and passing over the rest (off to Hell with them...ouch!).  His approach, especially as articulated by RC Sproul, has always made a "measure" of sense to me, and made it difficult for me to be dogmatic about the "Armenian" approach.  I have tended to land on it with my own mixture of both these brothers.  The way I taught my bible college students, was to say that neither Calvin or Armenius had it right.  Calvin was too deterministic in his approach to God's sovereignty, and Armenius was too man's will oriented, in his approach.  I taught my students that while man does not have "free will," he does have "genuine will."  Meaning, that while scripture implies that man's will does become involved with God's choices, his will is not sufficiently free, apart from God's divine enablings through grace, to respond to His call, so with the aid of His Spirit man's will is given that which it needs to finally respond and receive the faith and exercise it towards salvation.

I was aware that Ray opposed even this approach that I took, and his approach makes complete sense, since he sees UR, whereas Calvin didn't.  If Christ does all the choosing as to the "when" of a person's salvation (I.e. prior to the 1st resurrection, or prior to the 2nd resurrection) then of course we can take Calvin's perspective to the hilt.  But, if Ray is incorrect in UR perspective, then, from my point of view, Calvin's approach is beyond hideous and therefore unacceptable.

Of course, I hope Ray has it right, and I guess, in recent months, I have tended to land in the place of "not knowing."  I haven't landed in a place of rejection for UR, but trying to rearrange all the puzzle pieces I have been taught and taught, over the years, and settle in a UR place has not been easy for me.  I think my spirit takes to it, but my mind is weary from all the analysis and re-analysis.  Little by little I am returning to these matters, but somewhat reluctantly.


--- Quote ---Did you read the links I suggested already? You speak of understanding the concept of eternal with reservation?
--- End quote ---

Yes, I did read them, and I do think I comprehend word studies done around the words "eternal, forever, etc."  Fortunately I have taught both Greek and Hebrew for many years, and so have had that as a tool to evaluate Ray, and others', perspectives, surrounding those word meanings.  I suppose, because I know word studies alone are not absolutely conclusive, I have remained unsettled as to whether the approach Ray is taking to them is in fact correct.  I see the logic, and the words are clearly capable of the meanings his study has surfaced, but...because word studies are rarely conclusive, in and of themselves, I've retained some reserve about them.

When it comes to linguistic analysis in the realm of etymological meanings, I've found that while words are capable of a range of meanings, coming up with a dogmatic "This word always means this..." is often very difficult.  This is why some exegetes take these words and assign word meanings that oppose Ray's conclusions, and other exegetes take those same words and come up with the UR perspective.  If the field of linguistic analysis was simple we'd have far fewer commentaries, and word studies, floating around out there.  Then, when you add in the difficulty that ancient idioms pose for the honest exegete, you have an element that should cause any honest student pause.  Idioms are the hardest things in scripture to interpret correctly.  I've not been absolutely convinced that either side of this issue has sorted out the idiomatic meanings attached to these words and word phrases.  Year after year I would warn my students, "Listen you guys, if you think you can take your Strong's concordance, and your Dana and Mantey grammatical principles books, and arrive at pure interpretations, you can forget it.  You'll still find those who will see it differently from you, and they won't all be cracked pots."  It would frustrate them, because they all wanted to believe that once I got done teaching them Greek and Hebrew, they'd become perfect exegetes and arrive at flawless interpretations of scripture.  It was a jolt back to reality for them, for me to have to tell them it would not be that easy.  It isn't that easy.  It truly isn't.  The languages are far too malleable in the hands of the person who comes to the scriptures with preconceived conclusions.  This is the unfortunate history of biblical analysis, and theological tradition.

If Greek and Hebrew alone would resolve all interpretational issues, where would be the need for the Holy Spirit?  So, at the end of the day, and at the end of all studies, it still comes down to, "Lord Jesus, You, by Your Spirit, must be the One to speak to my spirit as to that which is right doctrine.  You alone are All Truth, and I rely more on you than my best intellect."

I would have hoped this would have resolved all these issues by now, but alas...not yet.  I continue to study, pray, and try to remain humble before others who believe "they have seen it..."  Thus, I come to this forum listening, not arguing...

I agree, that much of the historical etymology of "Hell" is pagan in its history, and has very little to do with the bible.  I've appreciated much of the UR teaching in this area.  All in all, as I've already said in previous entries here, I'm very predisposed towards believing the UR approach, because of sooo many clarified elements, but I'm not yet 100% there.

As I've said, it troubles me, that if the NT writers had such an optimistic view of the 1st and 2nd resurrections, why they then seemed to speak so negatively regarding God's judgments.  They do use plenty of fear to challenge the carnality of their readers.  They don't "appear" to have an optimistic view of 2nd resurrection potentials.  They seem to breath in finality, and despair, and dire conclusions to leaving this life unsaved.  If, when they discuss the judgments, just one of them would have said, "Listen brethren, while it is unwise to leave this life unsaved, there will be severe judgments in the next life that will cleanse your souls and bring you through to salvation, but far better that you settle matters here and now," I would not have the struggles with trusting the UR approach to things, but they don't.  They don't even hint of a second opportunity hope when discussing judgments.  One person commented here, that I was asking Jesus to spell things out, like His disciples often did when He walked the earth, and He rarely complied with those wishes, but instead, spoke to them in inigmatic parables.  I know this is His way, and it may be right at this point that I, like them, am still struggling.  If so, then only God can resolve this in me, as He later on did in them.

I've done the words studies on judgment, fire, etc., and I see how it is possible that these words do imply a possibility of process towards purification, but I suppose I continue to think they could just as easily refer to finality, and a very negative finality at that.

Arcturus, it is very obvious that your encouragements to me are genuine, and I receive them as such.  My journey is far from over, and I have learned to not accept quick answers to deep questions.  Over the years (I'm now 55) I've had many doctrinal perspectives brought across my path, and each of them came with such surety of their correctness.  I have been tossed about by every wind of doctrine, for various seasons of my life, but each time, as I return to that quiet inner place, where Christ resides, a sorting out has taken place, and truth has emerged.  I'm confident this will happen again, as relates to the UR doctrine.

I'm in great agreement with you, Ray, and others here, that our God is gracious beyond imagination, and His love is of unfathomable depth.  It would not surprise me at all to find that He will in fact save even the devil himself one day.  No greater love exists than His.

I do not see the emphasis that you and Ray and others here present, in the writings of the NT.  I just don't.  If they believed what is presented here, then they are strangely silent or hidden about it.  Yet, in many areas they are loud and clear.  I believe if you or Ray were to have writtent the NT books you would have written them with an unmistakeable UR bent, which I believe is strangely lacking in the writings of the NT.  There is sooo much more they could have said, that you all have said, that I'm drawn to one of two conclusions:

1.  Either they were told not to, by the Spirit, though they saw everything you see, or

2.  They didn't see what you see, and as a result they of course wouldn't have written as though they did.

Which of these two are the correct understanding I'm uncertain.  I know they could have been much clearer on the UR position, if they had wanted to, or been allowed to, so I'm mystified as to why they didn't, if they see it as you do.  Such truths are by no means hidden in Ray's teachings.  He couldn't be clearer, more direct, or more dogmatic, in his writings.  No one wonders where bro Ray stands on these matters.  Such is not the case with Paul's, Peter's, Jude's, and the other writers of the NT.  Even Jesus is waaaay less clear on these things than Ray is. 

Jesus' whole use of the Gehenna metaphor is so amazing, that I'm still not certain what to do with it.  Surely He knew that the whole Gehenna teaching of the Jewish Rabbi's, that came out of Babylon, and not from any OT prophets, would puzzle us one day.  Why does He align Himself with such Jewish mysticism?  I really don't know.  But, I know He knew what they believed about Gehenna, that it was an earthly location that represented a subterranean world of darkness and suffering, yet He references it over and over again.  I admit, this bothers me.  I'm well aware Gehenna is a physical location outside Jerusalem, and is used symbolically to describe the nature of earthly and temporal judgments for sin, BUT, the Jews also believed it was a metaphorical concept of the next life, and that of punishment.  I would never have thought Jesus would have used this terminology if He completely opposed the concepts the Jews had aligned with this place, but He does.  Very strange indeed.  It makes me somewhat uncomfortable with quickly dismissing the misery attached with this theme, even though I can't image my God doing such things to His creation.  It is an unclosed chapter at this point in my thinking...

If the NT writers saw more on UR than they let on, is it possible they were forbidden to say more?  If so, do we learn from their hiddenness, anything that might apply to how we are to address this issue?  Could it be that, while the themes of God's love are trumpted through UR teaching, there is just too great a danger than men and women will trifle with their salvation response in this life, figuring they will get another chance on the other side?  I know this concern is denied by many here, but I'm not as certain that this just might be a greater danger than some think.  I would not want to arrive, face to face with Jesus, only to find that He had hidden much of what is trumpeted here, because He didn't want this side of doctrine as manifested to the lost, given their inclination to independance and rebellion.  I know you, and others disagree with this concern vehemently, and I'm not saying I'm right here.  It is just a wondering...

Well Arcturus, we journey on.  I embrace what Paul said to the Ephesians:

Eph 1:15  Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16  Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers,
Eph 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19  And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21  Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23  Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

I live in these verses.  They are my life theme.  Nothing exceeds the value of deeper revelations of Jesus Christ...nothing, at least to my best understanding.

Thank for the time you've taken to address my concerns.

Jesus bless you!
Tom

hillsbororiver:
Dear Brothers & Sisters,

This has been an outstanding thread, one I can see proves that questions, comments and even opinions shared here can and will be received and discussed with patience and brotherly love when we stay focused on His Word, seeking a deeper knowledge of Him and His purpose for creating all mankind.

Beautiful testimony from all!

I will close with these verses, some of which have already been quoted;

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure:

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
 
1Ti 2:5  For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
 
1Ti 2:6  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

skydreamers:
Wow Tom, that is quite the background you are coming from!  You know, sometimes I wonder if too much knowledge is actually a deterrent from the truth, or at least can be for a time.  I often feel weighed down by the burden of thinking I have to know everything right down to its minutest detail, in order to understand.  I have often wished that I had the opportunity to learn Greek and Hebrew, but you know, I would have been one of those students of yours that was frustrated at hearing your words:


--- Quote ---"Listen you guys, if you think you can take your Strong's concordance, and your Dana and Mantey grammatical principles books, and arrive at pure interpretations, you can forget it.  You'll still find those who will see it differently from you, and they won't all be cracked pots."  It would frustrate them, because they all wanted to believe that once I got done teaching them Greek and Hebrew, they'd become perfect exegetes and arrive at flawless interpretations of scripture.  It was a jolt back to reality for them, for me to have to tell them it would not be that easy.  It isn't that easy.  It truly isn't.
--- End quote ---

My carnal mind still gets deceived at times that there is some formula that can be used to arrive at the truth.  Thankfully, God is faithfully bringing me out of that.

God has continually been humbling me, in showing me AFTER I see the truth, how simple it really is.  Though it may be mysterious, it isn't as complicated as my brain tries to make it! ;) 

For me, God did use a simple concordance and the bible to start me on the path of questioning what I had previously believed.  I was no longer attending church, and had no Christian fellowship.  It was just me, God and the bible.  In time I learned to find people on the internet that saw some of the things I did.  But when I came across Ray's site it was an entirely new level of "wow".  At first I was a little resistant because of all I had been taught, but soon my spirit felt convinced and there has been no looking back since.

I believe God can and does use countless methods to spark the quest for truth in people. I have heard such a variety of testimonies from people of all walks of life.  Some are shown through scripture, some through people, some through visons and some others through studying nature.  I have come to believe, when God reveals something hidden, it is surely done supernaturally.  Everyone is unique and so I think God deals with them in unique ways.

Perhaps for you Tom, it is that you know too much, technically speaking, and so God is getting ready to show you in a most unexpected way what is His truth, so that you too may know that it was surely God who showed it to you, and that you didn't figure it out for yourself, based on all your learning.  I think you already sense this from what you have said.

I had the privilege recently of attending a small UR conference here in my city.  I don't know what other "doctrinal" things this small group of people believe (about 15 of us), but what was fascinating is to hear the testimonies of how God started to show them the message of UR.  Each story was wildly different.  In fact, the only common thread there was, was that as each person started to embrace this teaching, they were persecuted and hated by others who believed in hell, to the point of extreme stress in some cases. 

There were three Pastors there and only one managed to keep a small congregation.  The other two were put through such "hell" that they either quit or were fired.  The one Pastor who kept his church did so only after much hate directed towards him and most of his congregation leaving the church.  Very few tolerated his simple message of God's enduring unfailing Love.  To me, this says something supernatural is at hand, and how much the Enemy HATES this message.  Satan will stir up the masses to crucify afresh the Savior that we here at bibletruths believe in.  They want to kill our Jesus.

This Pastor who managed to keep a small portion of his congregation, was before a full-out hell and brimstone preacher for like 15 years.  One day, about 13 years ago, his daughter who at the time was 17 has a vision of Jesus, and in this vision she is relentlessly stabbing Jesus.  When she is done, Jesus hugs her.  The Pastor was horrified that his good Christian bible studying daughter had such a frightening vision.  He was scared for her, and so he sought desperately the Lords clarification on the matter.  The Lord showed him that He was the Jesus that hugged her, and the one she stabbed was "another Jesus".  The Pastor then committed himself to learn everything He could about this "hugging" Jesus, and eventually through time and study and prayer he saw the message of UR.

This may sound like a cheesy testimony (he told it much better than I).  But my point is, it is one of many examples of testimonies I've heard or read, where people weren't even looking for this message, and God stopped them dead in their tracks, like Saul, and set them on a different path.  One day they are unknowingly persecuting their Lord and the next they are shown the errors of their way....if that's not supernatural, then I don't know what is!

This answers none of your questions of course, but I share this with you just to encourage you, and to say that I think surely your time is coming soon when God will give you the clarity you need.  There is a reason why he has put this in your path, and you have already expressed your deep desire to know what is the truth. 


--- Quote ---If Greek and Hebrew alone would resolve all interpretational issues, where would be the need for the Holy Spirit?  So, at the end of the day, and at the end of all studies, it still comes down to, "Lord Jesus, You, by Your Spirit, must be the One to speak to my spirit as to that which is right doctrine.  You alone are All Truth, and I rely more on you than my best intellect."

I would have hoped this would have resolved all these issues by now, but alas...not yet.  I continue to study, pray, and try to remain humble before others who believe "they have seen it..."  Thus, I come to this forum listening, not arguing...
--- End quote ---

Thank you for sharing more about yourself with us, and for sharing your thoughts and insights.

You are more like-minded with us than you may expect.  With everything the Lord has graciously clarified for me, another question pops up and the search continues.  God's word has seemingly endless treasures, and we know that in this age, none of us will be given complete truth....not until the age to come.

So welcome to the journey, with fellow brothers and sisters who desire more than anything to encourage you in your seeking.  We're all in the same storm and looking to Jesus to calm the raging waves.

Prayers of peace and blessing for you,
Diana

Chris R:
Hi Tom,

Very interesting post, I believe you to be very sincere, and enjoyed reading your responce, If indeed "it is given unto you"the apostles" to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them "the great multitudes" it is not" [Matt 13:11] We must interpit this to mean the obvious.

The few can never mean the many, If indeed "all these things happened unto them "all our fathers" for ensamples: and they are written for our "those chosen" admonition, [1Cor 10:11] Then few indeed will be given this understanding.

Whats the secret? Why so many left deceived? Why not just spell it out in plain language, so that ALL could understand?..Why indeed!

These and other questions could take hundreds and hundreds of pages to fully explain from scripture, why so many are called, yet so few chosen. You must agree God cannot create Sons, without the knowledge that God alone possessed, "the knowledge of Good AND Evil".[Gen 3:22]

The Salvation of ALL is not that hard to decipher from the New Testament, To me it is written in bold type in nearly every page, And to others, it cannot be reconciled one bit.  I cannot give a explanation as to why some see it so clearly, yet so many cannot see it at all.

"Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,"[Mar 1:14] BUT... Unto you " the apostles" it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them "the multitude" that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: [Mar4:11] ..Even the parables about "Gehenna".


Peace

Chris R

Tom:
Once again Diana & Chris,

Many thanks for your responses.

I know what you say is correct.  The methodology by which God reaches any of our hearts seems to be to penetrate beyond our mental and conditioned barriers, and reach us with pure revelation in a place within us that loses all will to resist.  That deep "amen" in the spirit is what I am seeking.

I'm so thankful to know Him to the degree I do, and I live with a continual Christmas morning anticipation of yet deeper truths/gifts from Father God.  It will come.  Finding the proper balance between anxious waiting and patient waiting is what diligent seeking Him is all about.  I resist the anxiety of having not solved all the doctrinal issues I've not yet solved, yet I resist passivity.  As much as possible I desire to live in a place of eager yet patient anticipation.

The work of the cross, in each of our lives, bringing to closure the will and mind of man, is an ongoing process.  I'm sure there are still many areas in my heart that are blocking the revelation I seek.  I know Him well enough to know He is right now working on a plan to reveal the truth, expose the error, and bring forth new life. 

Thanks again!

Tom

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