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A question of NT emphasis

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DuluthGA:
Hi Tom, I'm a newbie also.  And my deep sympathies for your loss.

Regarding why there may be such a 'dirth' of acknowledgments and descriptions of universal reconciliation in the NT.

Parenthetically, I believe you to exaggerate in that (paraphrasing you) 'God offers a bleak or dire picture in the NT' regarding this, or that NT writers 'are entirely lacking in hope... and they seem to breathe in finality and despair and don't appear to have an optimist view.'

I will try to liken your finding of a "shortage of written material" to me also finding a certain "shortage of written material" on a certain topic, e.g., why didn't God write more about His/Her feminine aspect?  Why is there no imagery of God the Mother or our Heavenly Mother that nurishes and nurtures us, when clearly God made male and female in "His" image, and this necessitates God would also have to be female.  [I hope you follow me on this.]  The idea just ain't in there!

Anyway my point to you is:  GOD SIMPLY DIDN'T "WRITE" IT THAT WAY, AND THEY'RE HIS BOOKS!  You know, "My Ways are not your ways, etc."

Further, the OT is filled with hopeful sayings in the psalms, proverbs and book of Ecclesiastes.  They are great to read in times of tragedy.

The NT has many encouraging phrases [I will not site all the verses] about God's love, our glory, the manifest sons of God, we shall be like Him, etc.  They excite the heck out of me.

So to answer your initial question of 'why do I think NT Scriptures fail to clearly discuss such an optimistic viewpoint?'  I too wish there was another whole book or two written on such.  But God didn't write it that way.  And I have come to share with you my belief that our God does ABSOLUTELY EVERY LITTLE THING for His and our own (eventual and ultimate) glory.

I am also here to testify that Jesus gave me water when there was none in the well.

With peace, Caregiver

Tom:
Hi Caregiver,

Your point is well taken.  In the end, emphasis is up to God.  If He didn't want to provide the kind of emphasis I would find helpful, then of course it is His Book, and He has the right to put it together whichever way He desires.  I fully support His emphasis, and His reasons for His emphasis.  I don't think I have any direct conflict with Him, nor the writers of the NT.  I am simply observing the obvious, that when the writers of the NT address the subject of final judgments and outcomes, they seem more to emphasize the tragic outcomes, rather than optimistic outcomes.  I just find myself wondering why?  If they held to a positive view of these judgments, in terms of the positive outcomes for those judged, as well as the positive outcomes of the Lake of Fire, why don't they address those positive outcomes?  I realize they don't "have to" to satisfy me, but I'm simply struck by the absence of what I would have expected them to say, had they had such an optimistic view.

I guess what I'm saying, is that after all the word studies, the parables, the analogies, and the various theological discussions, I'm reticent to accept a positive outcome that I don't see reflected in them. 

Let me give you another example.  One that you will more easily relate to.  To listen to the preachers in the Babylonian systems churches, you'd swear that absolutely every NT writer must have taught volumes on NT tithing.  It's as though they believe it is nearly the premiere doctrine of the NT.  But you and I know this isn't so.  In fact, we challenge them vociferously about their obvious "reading into" the NT a doctrine that just doesn't exist there.  They've got it all wrong, as near as I can tell.  They think the temple is still a building, they think Church is a place you go to.  They think leadership is hierarchical in nature.  They think a passive form of congregational attendance at meetings is the way it should be.  They think one person standing behind a pulpit is the only way to communicate.  They think Church is about meetings.  I could go on and on.  They have so many things wrong, and they say all their beliefs are built off of the NT, but you and I now know they fabricated those doctrines and beliefs, based on their personal desires/needs for security and significance.  And, in the end, Jesus gets the raw end of the deal, because His Church has been stolen from Him.  His headship has been denied.  His leadership has been usurped, and He's had to watch all this go on for 2000+ years.  Seriously wrong...all of it, but strongly believed by those in Babylon's churches.  They emphasize something the NT writers didn't emphasize.  They see something that just isn't there.  Their reasons are multitudinous, but they are wrong, at least in light of the light I have on these things.

So, am I saying that I think those who accept the teachings of UR have done the same thing?  I would say, "Not near so much."  But, I am concerned that it appears some are more comfortable with speaking where God is silent, and I find myself wondering if His seeming silence is with a purpose.  Where I would have anticipated Him being far more vocal, as regards positive outcomes of judgment and the lake of fire, He is virtually silent.  At least as far as I can see at this point He is.  So, from that silence I have asked Him a very pointed question, that I'm awaiting a clear answer from Him on.  It could go like this, "Lord, I'm well aware that many wonderful brethren believe there will be a good outcome for those judged in the next age.  Why didn't you say more about these positive outcomes?  Certainly you are greatest and clearest communicator of all.  Why have you left me with so many unanswered questions on this matter?"  At this point in my journey, while I cannot say "God has answered this question for me."  My spiritual hunch, or as you might define it as "my unbelief," I think the reason He didn't, even it is going to be a positive outcome, is because some things are best left unsaid lest it leave a wrong impression on those pondering a life of sin in this life, and then still obtain heaven's benefits in the next.  I suspect He thinks it is better to leave an impression that the outcomes will be very unpleasant, so as to encourage serious reflection on the consequences of sin.  I don't believe it is His highest motivation towards salvation.  I believe His love is clearly that, but I do believe I see Him using the theme of dire outcomes as a measure of the motivation to get things right with God in this life.

If I tell my child that if they run out into the street, as cars are quickly driving by, that they could get run over, and then one of my children watches my other child dart in and out of traffic, playing as if there were no danger, will it not likely embolden my other child, to try the same thing?  And, when one of them is run over, and the other one looks on, and reflects on consequences of disobedience, will they not learn a very sad and painful lesson, which I would far rather have had them learn without the consequences?  Now, I'm aware of how this would play out from a UR perspective.  Some would say to me, "But Tom, is it not bad enough that your child was run over and killed?  Do you also want to believe they will spend eternity in torments of fire, because they hadn't had time to settle their relationship with Jesus yet?"  To that I would, from my purely human perspective, reply "Of course not!"  I would hope their death would be resolved at the 2nd resurrection and the process of divine judgments with them being saved, BUT, do I see enough evidence that the outcomes of judgment will be positive for that child?  I wish I could say I did.  I know it sounds like I have a low view of God's goodness, and perhaps I do, but certainly not consciously.  I can't image God killing 185,000 Assyrians, or giving King Uzziah leprosy, or causing some in the NT Church, who defiled the Lord's supper, to be judged by physical death, or Ananias and Sapphira being killed for lying to the Holy Spirit.  I don't like any of those.  I have no idea, from my present frame of reference, how to comprehend how God can be good and still did those things to those people, but I know He did.  Scripture clearly says He did.  It makes me very uncomfortable.  I honestly don't know how to reconcile that with His love, but I do reconcile it.  Why?  Because I know He is loving.  I've experienced His love.  I know for certain He is loving.  I clearly see His love in the work of Christ at the cross.  So, if I know He is loving, and I know He did such dire things to the disobedient, then can I say I won't be able to accept even more serious outcomes of judgment when I'm there with Him, having become like Him because I see Him as He is?  I can't say I won't.  I'm inclined to believe that at that point I will be able to accept everything He does, even if my current mind and emotions can't grasp accepting it.

Listen friends.  I know I'm treading on hallowed ground in this forum, expressing things you have all come to believe is a detestable viewpoint, and I don't write these things to anger or upset anyone.  I haven't come here to preach, adjust, or fix anyone.  I truly haven't.  In the spirit of honest transparency, that we have all been experiencing on this theme, I've shared my present "sight."  I know some are concerned with my lack of spiritual light, in an area you have greater light than me in.  I'm concerned about this discrepancy too.  I would love to see what you all see.  I really would.  Perhaps I one day will. But for now, I've just candidly shared what I do see.  If and when the moderators would prefer I say no more I assure you I will cease.  I'm just exposing the wrestlings I have with these matters.

May God lead us all.

I remain your brother...
Tom

GODSown1:
Hey TOM,
      I know GOD is doin work in u brother, bcoz u sound like me wen I first entered dis Forum, BUT!! U hav much more knowledge, Wisdom, Talent etc etc way! more den  I eva had & probably eva WilL. I jus couldnt understan dis & d@, & um! d@ & dis but I jus kept focussed! on who?? GOD of coz, so Y em I hea? Y em I on dis earth? Y? Y? Y?, brother believe me wen it Hits! U, hav a bucket near lol! :) tears of Joy! brother believe it :D. bO I jus Pray GOD brings all ur answers 2 all ur questions 2 U soona den later, 2 all ur concerns d@ r screaming around in ur head lol! not 4gettn tho in sayn d@, ALL in HIS Time, all will b revealled. Bo take a gud look @ most of da pple in dis Forum (I did say most) lol! WoW!! m8 I jus feel so Blessed 2 even b amongst such knowledgable, talented, Blessed pple az urself bein 1, DudE all Glory goes 2 GOD! n I jus giv Thanks alwayZ! 2 our Great! Creator, its HIS way & no other way & howeva & woteva way da Plan HE has 4 me & may I say 4 U its AlL HIS. "Thank YOU FATHER 4 bringn us all here 4 Your Purpose! Your Way Only, may You giv us understandn 2 all our concerns, naggn thorts az I/we know You r in Control,You Alwayz hav been & You Alwayz will b in JESUS CHRIST our LORD & our SAVIORs Mighty!, Amazing!, Preccious!, Glorious!, Fabulous!, Formmidable!, Fantastic! name I Pray! Amen!!!".
         muchLOVE!! Pera

ps. LOVE, PEACE & MERCY 2 u brother TOM

Kat:
Hi Tom,


--- Quote ---some things are best left unsaid lest it leave a wrong impression on those pondering a life of sin in this life, and then still obtain heaven's benefits in the next.  I suspect He thinks it is better to leave an impression that the outcomes will be very unpleasant, so as to encourage serious reflection on the consequences of sin.
--- End quote ---

It seems you think that if God revealed, that there will be salvation for all in the second resurrection, that people would sin more in this life?  
God has given all mankind a heart that is wicked.
Jer 17:9  "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?"
And has given us a carnal mind that is enmity against God which is hatred or hostile.
Rom 8:7  because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
So we are in a pretty ratched state and that is God's intention.  We live in an age of darkness, this life is for the purpose of learning good and evil.
If God was trying to 'encourage serious reflection on the consequences of sin' I don't think it's working.  I don't think most people think of the consequences at all, not only is God aware of that, He causes them not to be.  


--- Quote ---I am simply observing the obvious, that when the writers of the NT address the subject of final judgments and outcomes, they seem more to emphasize the tragic outcomes, rather than optimistic outcomes.
--- End quote ---

As for the NT writers having a emphasizing the dire consequences of the judgment, I believe is because it is going to be seriously dire.
So people have been warned, those that know what the NT says shouldn't be so surpised.  In the parable of Lazarus and Rich Man, he wanted his brothers warned.

Luke 16:27  "Then he said, "I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
v. 28  for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
v. 29  Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'

So when people stand at the great white throne judgment and are cast into the Lake of fire, it is going to be a horrifying experience, but they have been warned.  When they go through the purging of there wicked ways, it will be tormenting for many as it was for the rich man, but they have been warned.

Rev 19:15  Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Tom:
Dear Pera,

You are a one of a kind blessing in the Kingdom!  Your words are always so tender and full of great love.  I wouldn't even begin to know how to express my gratitude for the way you express the Father's love.

I've received great grace here, considering that I'm stuck, somewhere between those who resist the greatness of the grace you all seem to have found, and those of you who have entered beyond that which I can fully see in Christ. I appreciate your patience!

I do not seek to uphold the doctrines and traditions of men, but I confess to have been trained in their schools, and conditioned by their understandings.  Little by little the Lord has extricated me from the rubble of man's foolish ideas of things, and if entering into the full understanding of UR is where He is leading me, then I know I will see that too.

Just before my son found out he was going to be held accountable to the law for something he had done 2 years previous, we had many conversations on this subject.  He was sickened by the traditional Church we had brought him up in, and was sooo glad we were done eating at that table.  He loved this subject, probably more than any we had ever talked about.  He was glad I was giving it serious consideration, and felt it was a healthy departure from the old ideas.  He asked my wife to read to him the entire book of Revelation, so in two settings he lay on the couch and she read the entire thing to him.  He had walked away from drugs, crime, and wasteful ways, and while he hadn't yet fully found his way back to the Lord, he was slowly moving in that direction.  When I expressed indecision on this subject, after appearing as though I would fully embrace UR, it saddened him, and confused him.  He couldn't understand why I would want to embrace thoughts of God that painted Him as horrible and rejecting as that which the traditional Church had trained him to believe, regarding Hell and its torments.  I told him I was not closed to UR, but I was concerned lest he ever leave this life unsettled with Christ, supposing that UR was valid, when I wasn't sure it was, and I didn't want to spend eternity without him near me.  He didn't say much.  He just listened, and kept his thoughts to himself.  About a month later, after landing an excellent job, he was coming home after his second sales presentation with his training manager, excited that they had closed a big contract, when out of nowhere, a policeman pulled him over, said there had been a warrant for his arrest for nearly two years, but they didn't know where he was living.  He called from jail to say how sorry he was, and that he'd find out more the next day.  We discovered the full nature of his former crime, and were hopeful that it might go well for him, given how well he had done the last two years.  We bailed him out of jail.  He came home, very sad and dejected, and unable to talk about it all.  It had crushed his dreams of finally escaping the consequences of past sins.  He apparently wrestled with it through the night, and in the morning, when my wife I had to go out for a couple of hours, he waited until we left, and then went outside, to our back yard, and took his life.  He did it in a place that would not hurt the home, and leave a mess.  Even in his death he was thinking about us.  When I came home I found him.  The horrors of that moment should never be given pen and paper to describe.  I see it in my mind's eye like it was yesterday, and it was a little over a year ago.  I share this to say that the things we pondered together on the theme of UR was the first time I saw him warm to the things of God in the two years he had lived and detoxed with us.

The next day, after he died, both my wife and I felt very strongly, that while she and I were apart for a portion of the day, processing our sorrow with the Lord, that our son came to each of us, and assured us he was ok, and we didn't need to worry.  I know well the teachings of Ray, on the subject of soul sleep.  I have no intention to argue against that position or for it.  I only know what we experienced.  We both remember it as strongly today as when it happened.  He was happy, free, and at peace.  His presence seemed to linger around our country property for a few days, and then as if the Lord decided we were ready, he was gone.  We looked at each one day and realized he was gone for good.  Whether is was only a vision, or it was his real presence, only the Lord knows.  It could have been just a vision I suppose, but it left me with such a sense of God's goodness, the magnitude of His love for our son, even though he took his own life.  It changed my heart towards God in a strange and enlarging way.  I had always trusted in His love, but suddenly it became far larger, far more real, nearly touchably tangible.  It still is...

Soooo, I can not ever see myself teaching the horrors of an everlasting Hell again.  It is just gone from within me to believe such a thing.  But, to fully embrace the message of UR...well, as I've said...I'm closer, but not there yet.

Thanks again for your kind words Pera.  Deep things you've shared!

Tom

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