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A question of NT emphasis
Tom:
Kat,
I hear what you are saying, and I must admit, after many of the articles written by Ray and others on the seriousness of the fiery judgments that those rejecting Christ will experience, it has registered deeply within me. I realize that no one here teaches any kind of a mushy "Jesus is just too good to chastise anybody," sort of nonsense. I know you all believe in a very serious and intense time of punishment and judgment for sin. Perhaps, in the end, I will settle that this resolves what I see in the apostles' teachings on the seriousness of the final judgments.
I'll be honest with one more story. As I was moving solidly towards UR, I shared openly, perhaps too openly, with some of those we regularly related to and ministered with. Oh my gosh, the firestorm it touched off was unbelievable. Out of nowhere, brothers I had walked with for 5 years turned on me, sent out a letter labeling me a full heretic, and warned all they knew to stay very clear of me. I was no longer safe...something had turned my heart away from the Lord, was all they could conclude. It was horrible.
It caused me to back peddle, and do some rethinking. In that process, either I gave up to quickly on the truth God had shown me, or I was slowed by the Lord, until I could come to full conviction of the things He was showing me. I don't really know which. Maybe a combination of both. All I know is that I backed up, studied again, and came to a place of realizing I hadn't adequately resolved some issues I needed to resolve before I struck down the road to hereticville.
I think I'm ok with being considered a heretic now. That experience ended that five year relationship, like as if someone fell a tree in the woods. Boom, over...at least for now. I have forgiven them, as they "somewhat" apologized for their approach, but the wound was so incredibly deep, and they have never truly sought to mend that wound, that they have gone their way, and I have gone mine. The group we fellowship with in our home was saddened that I turned away from UR, partially due to the conflict that arose. They had had no real trouble with it. They fully trust my heart. They were embracing it, though cautiously, because they too had been raised in the same traditional Church environment that I had. To this very day we have all agreed to table the matter, neither rejecting it nor accepting it. It is a matter of prayer for all of us. We are comfortable with His timing for resolution, and believe we had been a bit premature about accepting it as fully as we had, without resolving some concerns we still have.
Any way Kat, I know you are right. Even if UR proves to be accurate, the judgments of God are not going to be anybody's picnic. I hope I will escape those fires, but if it means all that is in error within me once and for all gets burned away, then I suppose I should welcome the judgments of God unto righteousness. That's a tough one to embrace though...
Thank you for taking the time you have to share your insights. I'm listening. Honestly I am.
Blessings!
Tom
Craig:
Tom,
I see from your post that you are struggling with UR. You think that is battle cry that we lead with here? Though it may seem so, it should not be.
The truth of scriptures as Ray teaches are for us to come through the fire, for us to die to our old selfs, to reveal the man of perdition and allow Christ to live in us and through us. As you stated, many things are preached from the pulpit that are not there or not emphasized. Perhaps in God's view UR is not the most important thing?
UR is there, make no mistake, but is only the milk or the word, and most make a habit of trying to live on the milk only, or become a connoisseur of the flavors of the milk. I pray that we do not do that here, and if that is your impression I am sorry. Again, UR is not emphasized because it is not the most important thing.
Craig
Chris R:
Hi Craig,
I agree whole heartedly, The Salvation of All is a part of the gospel, And is written in detail, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.[1Cor 3:15]"
God is sovereign. God is all wise and all knowing. He is all powerful and almighty. And God is LOVE. He has a plan, a purpose, a will. He is carrying out that plan. He has set man against His own will while He carries out His intentions which absolutely no one can withstand. To know good, one must have an experience of evil. God created evil (Isa. 45:7). It is only temporary. He has given an experience of evil to mankind to humble him thereby (Ecc. 3:10). It will be completely successful. God has called a privileged few to understand His plan now. He will call and enlighten everyone else later. Death cannot separate God from His love for them. There is coming a resurrection of the dead. All of the dead. They will be taught the truths of God and God will be their saviour. Ray Smith, Letter to Hagee
While the Gospel is written concerning those called and those chosen, the struggle defines us here and now, He that has a ear, hear what the spirit says This knowledge is given, we cannot "reason it out". We apply what is given to us, daily.
Peace
Chris R
rj:
Hey Tom
Welcome to the forum...I can't add anything to the great responses you have already gotten, but i do have a question.
You say.....Which of these two are the correct understanding I'm uncertain. I know they could have been much clearer on the UR position, if they had wanted to, or been allowed to, so I'm mystified as to why they didn't, if they see it as you do. Such truths are by no means hidden in Ray's teachings. He couldn't be clearer, more direct, or more dogmatic, in his writings. No one wonders where bro Ray stands on these matters. Such is not the case with Paul's, Peter's, Jude's, and the other writers of the NT. Even Jesus is waaaay less clear on these things than Ray is
I was just wondering if you had e-mailed Ray, and ask him how he could be so clear on this subject, when Jesus wasn't.
Ron
Tom:
Hi Craig,
A very interesting reply! A good one!
Certainly, even if UR stands as a true doctrine, it is only one amongst many. I would like to think of it as just one shelf in the warehouse that is Jesus. If we keep our eyes fastened on Him, allowing the cross He appoints to each of us to reveal more and more of Him, then ultimately all doctrinal issues will be resolved in a yet greater revelation of Him.
When I survey my past in Christ, I find that everything significant that I have come to know, I have come to know it through not so much receiving a doctrinal revelation, as I have a revelation of the person of Christ. He is the alpha and the omega. He is the king of kings, not doctrine. He alone will be the centerpiece and all encompassing focus of the ages to come.
I'm truly and peacefully confident that if I keep my spiritual eyes on Him I will come to know even as I am known, all that I need to know. No man can obtain revelation just because He wants it. All such revelation is hidden within God, and only through apokaluptsis (an opening up of the hidden things/revelation) can they/He be known.
My job is to study, seek, pray, and wait on God. I have seen much of the doctrine discussed here, and have no argument with it. When He is ready for me to see the rest in Him I'm sure I will. Until then I want Him to be my primary pursuit, not the doctrine of UR.
I hope this makes sense. I'm not saying I disdain this doctrine, nor your passions here to declare it. I know you value it, first and foremost, because it is a wonderful means of declaring the wonders of the person of Christ. I don't sense a need to be "right" on this forum, as much as I sense a jealousy for the truth as it is "in Christ." I've been blessed here, in the few short days I've participated.
Thank you!
Tom
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