> General Discussions
A question of NT emphasis
Tom:
Hi Chris R,
I too am drawn to 1 Cor. 3:15. I think it is one of the most fascinating verses in the entire bible, as relates to the theme of UR.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
In verse 11, Paul's "no man" sounds as though it's only logical connection is to "a believing man."
In verse 12, Paul's "any man" sounds once again to be connected with a believer only.
In verse 13, Paul's "every man" begins to make me wonder, if it is limited just to the believers. It begins to sound far broader.
In verse 14, Paul's "any man" sounds once again to be referencing the work of the believer.
In verse 15, Paul's "any man" in connection with the work he refers to in verse 14, leads me to connect to a believer only.
But it is verse 16, that particularly seems to nail down who Paul has been referring to "Ye are the temple of God." This can only refer to believers.
However, I note the intensely fascinating theme of the "fire" of God. That which purges, and refines, as Ray so well points out. The moment he pointed out that verse, and connected it with the UR theme, something powerful resonated within me. Even those who so vehemently oppose the UR doctrine, have to come face to face with the great prophet Paul, and recognize he is looking far off into the prophetic distance, and seeing a fiery refining work of God. Though it seems to be singly applied to the believer in this passage, I find myself wondering why those who oppose UR are so certain that the lake of fire doesn't partake of "ANY" of this refining potential. If any one verse keeps bringing me back to UR to rethink it, it is this one. If God can pass a believer through fire, and he comes forth improved, then why can such an experience not be useful to the unbeliever? I have never read one single solid rebuttal of this logic by any scholar who opposes UR.
I wish Paul had gone beyond his clear reference to believers in this passage. It is possible he has, in the sense that if he thinks of this fire as being the same as the lake of fire of the Revelation, which John references, and if there is in fact just one age to come fire, as there appears to be just one age to come judgment seat, then perhaps this resolves the question. I for one have come to think that when Paul refers to the judgment seat of Christ, in 2 Cor. 5:10, he is seeing the exact same thing as John, who refers to it as the Great White throne judgment, of Rev. 20:11. It seems unlikely to me that we are looking at two separate throne experiences. All mankind passes through the judgment of that one throne. Paul focuses the judgment seat of Christ on believers, whereas John makes a heavier focus on unbelievers, but they both appear to be one and the same throne, just given an emphasis on two different sets of people.
If this be so, then "could" the "no man, every man, any man's" of Paul's 1 Cor 3, just be his way of focusing on what all mankind will experience, with a special reference to the believer? It seems at least possible. I'm unable to be conclusive on this point, but I must admit it pushes me solidly towards the UR position, far more than it pushes me towards the traditional doctrine of eternal Hell.
If God can pass a believer through some form of spiritual fire, and we recognize that spiritual fire to be a part of the coming ages, and it has a positive benefit to the believer, then why can't the same fire, perhaps taking a longer period of time for refining, have the same positive effect upon all mankind? At the very least this challenges solidly the notion that the lake of fire can only be an experience of tortuous misery. It certainly won't be for us, so why would it "have" to be for them. Uncomfortable for us...surely, but obviously not an endless discomfort.
Perhaps, as you say, God will continue to open my inner ear to these things, and confirm the truth of this position. At the very least this verse has waaay opened my heart to the possibility that positive outcomes could come forth from such fires.
Thanks for your patience and instruction. I'm receiving it!
Tom
Tom:
Hi Rj,
That is a reasonable question.
In the past...perhaps a year ago, I emailed a couple of times to Ray, and he very graciously responded to me, and invited me to come out and visit him some time. I would love to do so.
I guess I have shied away from passing by him every question that comes to my mind, as it is obvious he is extremely challenged by all the email that already comes to him, plus his studies and writing. I suppose out of mercy for his busy schedule I've not written him again. Plus, I know it is my job to read his writings, do my own study, pray, and wait on God. I tend to believe in general that seeking counsel or insight from other men should be something the Spirit leads, so that we learn to turn to Him first rather than men. Therefore, I only turn to men when I sense a distinct leading to do so.
In the case of my addressing some questions to this forum, I'd have to say I have felt led to do so. And, the responses here have only confirmed that leading. I'm blown away by the gracious reception my questions have received.
Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll pray about it. With someone of his stature in the kingdom I give great pause to consuming any of his personal time. God will lead me...
Blessings
Tom
Kat:
Hi Tom,
--- Quote ---If this be so, then "could" the "no man, every man, any man's" of Paul's 1 Cor 3, just be his way of focusing on what all mankind will experience, with a special reference to the believer? It seems at least possible. I'm unable to be conclusive on this point, but I must admit it pushes me solidly towards the UR position, far more than it pushes me towards the traditional doctrine of eternal Hell.
--- End quote ---
I do agree with your understanding of 1 Cor. 3. But if I way point out, Paul is mainly speaking of the believer here, but in verse 13 "each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it..." 'the Day' would that be the same 'day' for believers and unbelievers? 'That day' is referred to by Jesus as when many will call on Him, but will be turned away.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'... 'I never knew you; depart from me..."
But 'that day' is also for the believers.
2Th 1:10 "when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed."
And another point is the scripture in 1 Tim. that referrs to Christ as "the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe."
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.
This verse includes all, both believers and unbelievers.
Just a few points I thought to bring out.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
musicman:
The kingdom of heaven (Christ and His elect) is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Cor. 5:6
No ye not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
Hey Tom, how bout some OT:
The Wave Sheaf (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover) (includes Passover)-This represents Christ (the First of the firstfruits)
The Feast of Weeks is when the first fruits of the land is harvested. This represents the elect who will be in the first resurrection.
Guess the rest are off to hell. . . unless:
The end of the year Feast of Ingathering (Feast of Tabernacles):
Thou shall observe The Feast of Tabernacles seven days after you have gathered in your corn and your wine. And you shall rejoice in your feast, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger and the widow that are within your gates.
Ver. 23-24
Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit (Christ) thereupon those who are Christ's in His presensence: thereafter the consumation (end). . .
Ex. 23:16
. . . and the Feast of Ingathering of the Fall Harvest, which is in the end.
John 7:37-38
In the last day, that great day of the Feast (Tabernacles), Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of Living Water.
I got all these things from Ray in one of his early Lake of Fire papers.
Tom:
Kat,
I think you are right. My wife and were just sitting at our breakfast table, discussing the things we are writing of here (parenthetically, I am so blessed with a mighty woman of God, and one equally committed to a biblical understanding of God's truth, as well as a profound love for Christ), and I think there is but one "Day," and it is a day, a judgment seat day, in which all mankind will face the truth as it is in Christ, and the outcomes will be varied, depending on the degree of reception of the truth in Christ.
It does not seem as if there are "Days," but one "Day." A day of judgment. It will be a day that is preceded by the fires of God, per 1 Cor 3, that purges the carnal works of the believer, and it is a day that is followed by the unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire. Presumably their being cast there will have the same effect in their lives, as it had in the fire the believers went through, I.e. purging, purifying, and restoration. I don't understand why traditional theology has so adamantly demanded it is of necessity endless in torture. What could be the purpose of that? How would that please and resolve anything in the Father? I assume their conclusion, that it will be endless, is their linguistic analysis of eonian (Greek, aionios). I think it is possible eonian could be understood idiomatically as endless, but I also think it could just as easily be stretching its meaning beyond what is logically necessary. It feels to me like an eisogetical interpretation rather than an exegetical one. I don't know why the greater part of christendom feels it must read into eonian an endless torment. It mystifies me. It's as if they have an emotional need to see it this way. Much like men who can't stand the thought of women teaching them anything in Christ. They read Paul's words through chauvinistic eyes, and see red when a woman of God tries to teach them anything. Nonsense!
Yet, and I say this cautiously, but I don't want to interpret the lake of fire through emotional eyes either. I don't want to find it so emotionally detestable to think that God could endlessly torture the lost, that my interpretation is based on my emotion of discomfort. I can believe He could help me with this emotion in the ages to come. I think it is preposterous to think He'd ever cause me to rejoice at the tortuous condition of the lost, but I can slightly imagine He could grant a grace I cannot now fathom, to handle the sorrow I would feel for the endless sufferings. Do I think this will be the case? I really don't know, and really do doubt it. I think He has something else prepared, that He says very little of.
I'm less inclined to think of things as being an endless torture, and more inclined to think that annihilation will take place or redemption. It seems biblically inconsistent to imagine an endless hell, no matter what anyone does with the word eonian.
Finally, I agree with you regarding 1 Tim 4:10. I know the traditional interpretation is that Jesus is the savior of all mankind, even of those who reject His work at the cross, but who will never receive His savioral benefits, but this seems such a strained interpretation of this verse. It is a strange verse indeed. It does appear to me that Paul wants us to see that now He is the savior of those who believe, and later He will be the savior of those who do not now believe, but oh how I wish he had been just a little bit clearer on this point. How I would love to be able to ask him if this is what he meant. It would clear up so much. There are so many places where just such an explanation would tip the scale towards UR and settle so much, but it is at just these points where silence prevails.
Thanks again! Such edifying things!!!
Tom
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version