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A question of NT emphasis
Kat:
Hi Tom,
I glad you have joined us :)
I would say that the apostles do make a strong emphasis in the NT to obtain the first resurrection or the incorruptible crown.
1Co 9:24 Do you not know that those running in a race all run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain.
v. 25 And everyone who strives for the mastery is temperate in all things. Then those truly that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.
But they also speak quite a bit about the resurrection of the dead, that all men should have hope in.
Act 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
v. 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
Act 24:15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
v. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
v. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
1Tim 2:4 who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
v. 5 For God is one, and there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,
v. 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Tim 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Col 1:20 And through Him having made peace through the blood of His cross, it pleased the Father to reconcile all things to Himself through Him,
whether the things on earth or the things in Heaven.
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1Jo 2:2 And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.
All these scripture show that all the world will be brought to salvation. For the few it is in this life, but the rest of mankind will also be brought into the kingdom at their appointed time.
I hope this helps.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Deborah-Leigh:
Sure Tom and I am happy you see my concern!
Read this : Is "Everlasting" Scriptural?... You will find it on the Home page...it has got real gems in it! Just what I think you are seeking! :D
Enjoy!
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
Deborah-Leigh:
Here is another snippet for you Tom : http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3684.0.html
Also you can go to : http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html where Kat has astutely compiled a list. Scroll down to Born/Begotten and find some more food for thought!
I can just say there is no quick fix. Sometimes Ray responds by saying that the question requires many pages of answers. I know you want just one scripture but just one scripture of Gods Word has unfathomable depth that we have to discover. That is part of the plan. The good gems are hidden and not on the surface!
Let me know how you go after reading through and if you get stuck keep going! ;D
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
Tom:
Greetings Kat!
Thanks again Arcturus!
I'd like to address Kat's comments first...
I 100% agree with you Kat, that these verses clearly imply that through some manner (presumably the workings of God's grace and judgments) all mankind will one day come to salvation in Christ.
However, because many have questioned, and reasonably exegeted these portions of Scripture, and see something different than what "appears" to be their meaning, I turn to a slightly different issue, though definitely connected.
It has do with the seemingly negative element of judgments, and a seeming lack of hope connected with them. For example, we consider the following:
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Having carefully studied UR interpretation of "vengeance," "punished," "everlasting," "destruction," and "from the presence of the Lord," I know the approach that can be taken to purificative elements that are potentially included in these words meanings, but I'm struck by the "emphasis" of these words. The emphasis is completely harsh and negative, not hopeful and positive. We would have anticipated the great grace man, Paul, would have at the very least concluded his comments with something like "however, at the completion of God's judging processes, their souls will, having been purified by His holy fires, be fully redeemed," but he doesn't, and when the other writers of the NT address this theme of judgment they similarly don't paint a picture of hope for those being judged. Why?
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Once again, understanding the potentially positive elements of spiritual fire, unto purification, I'm struck by the seemingly negative approach Peter takes to this issue. He doesn't imply any hope, anything positive, other than the Lord's righteousness being vindicated. Why?
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
As I have mentioned previously, I've carefully studied the potential meanings of "everlasting, eternal, and forever," and am aware that these all could very easily be referring to a temporary age of judgment, to be followed by redemption, after the workings of grace and divine workings, BUT, why does Jude not paint a hopeful picture for them? Why is his picture so overwhelmingly negative, if he saw something positive beyond the age of judgment?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
I'm struck again, by the writer of Hebrews, with how negative a picture he paints. Why, if he "knew" they would all ultimately be redeemed, would he speak so negatively. Surely you wouldn't have spoken this way, would you? I can't imagine bro Smith would have. Each of you would have been deeply concerned that such phraseology would leave a wrong impression of hopelessness and despair, for those who leave this life unsettled with Christ, yet this writer seems to "want" to leave a hopeless and dire sense in the minds of his readers. Why?
Honestly brethren, I'm not attempting to stir up an argument here. I'm genuinely struggling with their emphasis. I don't understand how, if they ultimately believed everyone, after severe judgments and refinings, were going to be redeemed and delivered, they are so willing to leave an impression that speaks otherwise. This truly confuses me.
I'm very interested in your perspectives on this perplexing emphasis they leave.
Thank you again!
Tom
Tom:
Hi Arcturus,
Yes, yes, I completely agree that "everlasting" potentially, and even likely,doesn't mean "everlasting" as we would think of it. I agree that both Olam and Aionios are capable of temporal meanings, and for anyone to construct an "endless" concept of judgment from these words, is to do so in the face of so many obvious passages that communicate a temporary nature to them.
I too think it is highly likely the biblical writers did not have an "eternal" concept as was derived in later generations. I believe many of the translations are little more than eisogesis (reading in personal preference or later word meanings) for these words.
My struggle is not so much with the temporary or endless issues of UR. They are far more with the "hope" versus "despair" aspect that the NT writers imply. I don't see them emphasizing or referencing hope beyond God's judgments, when they are discussing those judgments. I would have thought they would, if they indeed believed there was hope beyond them.
I appreciate your engaging me in these matters, as my only intention is to come to the truth.
Tom
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