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A question of NT emphasis
Tom:
Here's a thought to throw into the "emphasis" mix...
When we read the OT, and consider OT kingdom theology, most everyone recognizes that traditional Jewish Kingdom Theology clearly believed that ALL Jews would one day be resurrected from the dead and brought into the heavenly kingdom of God.
In Jesus' day, the only exception to this belief was among the Sadducees, who did not believe in a resurrection. But obviously Jesus wasn't aligned with their theology.
Just by Jesus' aligning with the Pharisees, who did believe in a universal resurrection and inclusion in the kingdom of God, at least for all Jews, it seems we see something very significant.
Over and over again, throughout the prophets, they prophesy about a restored Israel, in a kingdom age of unparalleled glory. Because of their confused bias, at seeing this either completely as a Jewish kingdom, or at the very least a primarily Jewish kingdom, their emphasis was towards the Jews, but we now recognize God had something far broader than just the Jewish nation in mind, for His kingdom.
As the prophets prophesy, they continually see things for the nation that seem to make no sense at all if the entire Jewish ancestry is not raised from the dead and given an opportunity, afresh and anew, to know the Messiah. Even those who are led to Babylon and Assyria in captivity, are prophesied to in ways that were designed to encourage repentance and hope for a time after their death, FOR THE ENTIRE NATION. How else to understand their prophecies, if they were only meant for the very last generation of Jews to whom the gospel would finally make sense to, and who would repent in this life and get saved? The result would be little more than a small handful of Jews saved, from their inception as a nation. This hardly aligns with the magnitude of hope for Israel, that the Jewish prophets prophecied of.
A general flaw of Jewish Messianism, and the Kingdom Age, was their belief that simply because they were Jews they would receive the Kingdom, but certainly we know that the repentance component can not be removed from this hope, even if they missed understanding this requirement. Surely we would have to anticipate Messiah wouldn't just gloss over their sins and former rejection of Messiah. We would have to anticipate there being some form of conviction, confrontation of unbelief, and repentance. Yet, interestingly, there is very little said of this in typical traditional Church theology. I've always found this omission strange.
This prophetic theme has nagged at my heart for a long time, and over the last year, of pondering UR, its nagging has only increased. What does Hosea mean, if His promises don't speak of this hope?
I don't remember Ray specifically teaching on this element of Jewish theology. Does he have an article that specifically deals with Jewish prophetic kingdom theology, and its application to the whole world?
Thanks again!
Tom
Chris R:
Hello Tom,
Ray often quotes Isaiah 26:9 "When thy judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" I find this verse to encompass the ideal that all men "inhabitants of the world" will learn righteousness, and if ALL men learn what is right, of what value is it to them?
Second witness;
"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." [Hab 2:14] Again, of what value is this knowledge if not to redeem those learning?
The cause of judgment is to set things right, "The Reckoning", And if the two verses above are worth the paper their written on, there can be no other explanation as to the meaning.
If you examine the OT text, you will ultimately find nothing that supports the idea of a eternal torture chamber, were non believers are burned in torment forever, the concept is nowere to be found in the scriptures.
Eternal torment has absolutely no redeeming value whatsoever, it is an enigma, it cannot possibly bring about any GOOD...so to what use is it? Even the brightest best theological minds in the world argue over such a simple statement, What GOOD comes from eternal punishment?
That being said, as has been stated, this is not the overwhelming principle taught on bibletruths.com It is merely milk to those who have looked beyond the ridiculous doctrine of eternal torment/annihilation.
Peace
Chris R
Kat:
Hi Tom,
My reading of Hosea, shows that Israel is a example or type, that foreshadows the great harlot of Rev 19:2 "For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her."
Just as all Israel had gone astray, so have all the generations up to this present day. And there is a lot of talk in Hosea, of the severe judgments which will be upon them in the day of judgment. But the last chapter of Hosea show that they will return to the Lord.
The chosen are now the Jews not by birth, but by a circumcised heart.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
v. 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Now these chosen to be Jews, will also judge the Jewish nation.
Rom 2:27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?
I'm not sure this is exactly what you were talking about, but I thought I would share what I see in Hosea.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
GODSown1:
Hey TOM,
I feel 4 U ma brother in CHRIST, I know u r so right der r no wordz d@ could discribe how U feel thru wot happened wit ur son, Tears jus rolled down ma cheeks 4 da sadness U mustve felt & probably still do, but Joy also came withn as wen I read d@ my mind went right 2 JESUS!, & our FATHER! who gav us His son so d@ We will know! da TRUTH!!!!. GODBLESS! U Tom & may HE Comfort & bring Peace withn in which I can already hear in ur writings HES workin in U Hardowt!!, Blessngz 2 u & ur wife Tom, keep up da GOOD work n CHRIST JESUS Amen!.
much muchLOVE!! Pera
ps. & U r so rite id so LOVE! 2 meet n b around all of da pple in dis forum (literally) & pple of likeminds 2, PEACE!! bro
Tom:
Chris R,
So many verses in the OT make little sense without a UR understanding.
I agree, as regards the lack of discussion of anything that looks like a doctrine of endless Hell in the OT. When I find someone I think I can trust to not pounce on me as a heretic, for even thinking about the UR doctrine, I will often ask them the following question: "If you only had the OT to teach of an endless and tormentous Hell, where would take me to see that approach?" It leaves them stumped. There are a couple of verses in Isaiah that look somewhat inclined in that direction, but given Isaiah is just one book, and does not represent early theological understandings in the earth, if the majority of OT peoples are destined to an eternal Hell, without ever being warned of its excrutiating nature, how would that be just? It is, to my way of thinking, a compelling argument.
I know my wus approach to not wanting to be considered a heretic could be considered pretty sick, but to my way of thinking, until I'm settled in my understanding of this issue, I'm not going to blow the emotions and hearts of those I relate closely to, prematurely. I did it one time before, in my early studies of UR, and you would have thought I had come right out and told them I considered Jesus to be the devil. I'll take the heat when I'm clear and confirmed in it, but for now I'm pretty careful about who I talk about these things to.
Thanks again for the perspective.
I know there are many deeper issues in our walk with Christ, than just UR, but for now it is one area I'm seeking light and settling in. Thanks for indulging my hunger for truth.
Tom
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