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A question of NT emphasis
Tom:
Kat,
That's exactly the direction I was going with my comments.
How can the OT prophets have such an optimistic approach of Israel's future, if the majority of Israel is damned to everlasting hell? It just doesn't make any sense! This is an area that keeps nudging me closer and closer to resolution on this matter. If all we had was the OT I don't think we would ever have had the doctrinal conflicts we have over this area.
Those who fully buy into the endless hell approach, do so almost exclusively from the NT, and when asked what they do with the absence of the endless hell doctrine in the OT, their basic answer is, "Well, that's not surprising. They had a little light, and spoke from the little light they had, but when the Spirit came, more light on this topic came, and thus we see an endless hell was always in God's plans." It is amazing to me how logical this seems to them. It says so little about the mercy of God to provide an adequate warning to millions and millions of lost souls in the OT.
One of the things I've pondered, is if Christians really believed, at a deep heart level, that the majority of mankind was actually going to spend eternity in a tormenting hell, they would be far more intense about their communication of the gospel to the unsaved. I think we all know, at a level we can hardly articulate, that it is umimaginable that God would actually place people in endless torment, thus our sense of urgency for the lost is tempered by some mysterious "knowing" that there will yet be future opportunities to sort things out. I know this is a weak argument for UR, but it is one I've pondered. It is another one of those inner nudging voices in the UR direction.
Thanks again Kat. I'm hearing you!
Tom
Chris R:
--- Quote from: Tom on June 26, 2007, 07:29:23 PM ---Chris R,
So many verses in the OT make little sense without a UR understanding.
I agree, as regards the lack of discussion of anything that looks like a doctrine of endless Hell in the OT. When I find someone I think I can trust to not pounce on me as a heretic, for even thinking about the UR doctrine, I will often ask them the following question: "If you only had the OT to teach of an endless and tormentous Hell, where would take me to see that approach?" It leaves them stumped. There are a couple of verses in Isaiah that look somewhat inclined in that direction, but given Isaiah is just one book, and does not represent early theological understandings in the earth, if the majority of OT peoples are destined to an eternal Hell, without ever being warned of its excrutiating nature, how would that be just? It is, to my way of thinking, a compelling argument.
I know my wus approach to not wanting to be considered a heretic could be considered pretty sick, but to my way of thinking, until I'm settled in my understanding of this issue, I'm not going to blow the emotions and hearts of those I relate closely to, prematurely. I did it one time before, in my early studies of UR, and you would have thought I had come right out and told them I considered Jesus to be the devil. I'll take the heat when I'm clear and confirmed in it, but for now I'm pretty careful about who I talk about these things to.
Thanks again for the perspective.
I know there are many deeper issues in our walk with Christ, than just UR, but for now it is one area I'm seeking light and settling in. Thanks for indulging my hunger for truth.
Tom
--- End quote ---
Hi Tom,
Sure i understand, i was there once, And to be honest, i still get blank stares from old friends, I taught this ridiculous doctrine in Sunday School, Performed in special programs, Played instruments, sung songs, Got goose bumps when the preacher shouted in tongues. Went forward, got baptized, cried, howled, raised my hands, and shouted a lot of "A-Mens"
I thought I was so happy, I mean, come on... i was going to heaven, and everyone else outside my immediate church buddies were going to hell..all the Catholics, and Baptists, Methodists, ..none of them had the "real" truth..yep..straight to the pit for everyone but me and my pals...
Why didnt i have a little compassion for those others?...i'll tell you why!...Because it didnt effect ME one IOTA!..I would be quite content watching billions of men, women and children sizzle in unimaginable agony, SO WHAT...it wasn't me..I could sit and eat popcorn and laugh at the screams of the horrific pain riddled bodies gasping for air, only to sink once more into the fiery lake of molten hot liquid.
Let me tell you this....no SANE human being could STAND that view for 2 minutes. let alone 1 hour...let alone a week....now..lets ADD ETERNITY?
When i read Rays papers..it took me 10 seconds.....I mean 10 SECONDS to REPENT of such utter trash...and i could care less who knows it!..It is the most DIOBOLICAL destructive doctrine EVER to be hatched in the depraved minds of mankind!
Are we to then expect the very Same God that instructs us to LOVE our enemies, will then torture all his enemies for all eternity?
1Cr 15:19 If in [b]this life only [/b] we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Anyway done rambling..
Peace
Chris R
bobf:
--- Quote from: Tom on June 24, 2007, 12:27:02 PM ---When both OT and NT writers write of these themes, if they clearly had a positive and hope filled view of the ages to come, why do they, when discussing judgment, not express their optimism towards positive and redemptive outcomes? In other words, it seems they consistently miss their logical opportunities to present a salvational view of the coming ages, in the sense of describing "how" the judgments and fires will bring forth a saved company of redeemed ones. Why do you think they fail to "clearly" discuss such an optimistic viewpoint?
--- End quote ---
Tom, here is my understanding. If the salvation of all mankind were spelled out clearly, how would the meaning of owlam life and owlam judgment be still sealed? It must be sealed, because it says so here:
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Surely the "sealed words" would include at least the prior two verses wouldn't they? If they are sealed they are not to be undertood. Notice that the wise will TURN MANY to righteousness. That must be sealed too.
12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Noticed that Daniel asked what the outcome of all these things will be but he was told that the understanding of that is sealed. Only the wise and pure wil understand.
Zade:
If the writers of scripture truly believed that souls would be redeemed through the judgment process, why don't we see them coming right out and saying this?
I've struggled with this too. Why don't we have ONE clear statement of universal reconciliation that could absolutely never be denied by the church? There are some pretty clear cut statements, but the church manages to find their way around them. Why isn't there ONE verse, "Every single person who has ever lived and will ever live will be saved" Yknow what, why aren't there verses like that on every single page of the Bible???
Because It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. (Proverbs 25:2) It can not be so obvious that it is undeniable, because God NEEDS deniers for his plan. Right now, God is blinding a lot of eyes, and that's part of his plan. If UR was undeniable, how could he blind eyes? He aboslutely needs Babylon to fulfill his plan.
Ray said it in one of the audios: "God wrote this book so people wouldn't understand it, and every generation he chooses out some people to understand this book" And that's His plan. He COULD OF made UR undeniable, but that isn't his plan. And it's a good plan, because he's righteous in all of his ways.
DuluthGA:
Hi again Tom. I sure am enjoying your thread. It is good to challenge my thoughts. Here are a few more verses to hopefully inspire you. Some are direct UR-type verses, some verses are given for support conceptually. Most are KJV. I tried not to repeat any of those previously mentioned; if I accidentally did, sorry. :) These verses are in no particular order.
Rom 3: 22-23 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ UNTO ALL AND UPON THEM THAT BELIEVE: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE: FOR ALL HAVE SINNED, and come short of the glory of God:
John 12: 32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN unto me."
Psalms 86: 9 ALL NATIONS whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
Luke 3: 6 And ALL FLESH shall see the salvation of God.
Isaiah 52: 10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD.
Gen 22: 18 And in thy seed shall ALL THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Rom 11: 36 And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 5: 10,18 For IF, WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, MUCH MORE, being reconciled, WE SHALL BE SAVED by his life..... Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.
Rom 8: 29 That, whom He foreknew, HE DESIGNATES beforehand, also, TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, for Him to be a firstborn among many brethren. [CLNT]
Rom 9: 18, 21 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth...... Hath not the potter POWER OVER THE CLAY, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9: 19b ..... for who has withstood HIS INTENTION? [CLNT]
Rom 9: 22-23 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured [Greek = carries] with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY.
Isaiah 64: 8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; WE ARE THE CLAY, and THOU OUR POTTER; and WE ALL ARE THE WORK OF THY HAND.
Phil 2: 13 for IT IS GOD WHO IS OPERATING IN YOU to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight. [CLNT]
2Tim 1: 9 [God] Who SAVES US and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but IN ACCORD WITH HIS OWN PURPOSE and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian. [CLNT]
Rom 12: 44 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of faith.
Rom 11: 8 What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, GOD GIVES THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day. [CLNT]
Acts 13: 47b I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for SALVATION UNTO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.
Jeremiah 32: 27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of ALL FLESH: is there any thing too hard for me?
Prov 11: 31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: MUCH MORE THE WICKED AND SINNER.
Heb 3: 4 For every house is builded by some man; but HE THAT BUILT ALL THINGS IS GOD.
1Cor 11: 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but ALL THINGS ARE FROM GOD.
Prov 16: 4 the Lord hath made ALL THINGS for himself: yea, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of evil.
Matt 19: 25-26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, "With men this is impossible; but WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE."
Isaiah 40: 5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and ALL FLESH shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
Isaiah 42: 16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things WILL I DO unto them, AND NOT FORSAKE THEM.
Isaiah 25: 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off ALL faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off ALL THE EARTH: for the Lord hath spoken it.
Ezek 21: 7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tiding; because it cometh: and EVERY heart shall melt, and ALL hands shall be feeble, and EVERY spirit shall faint, and ALL knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord God.
Psalm 65: 2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall ALL FLESH come.
Acts 3: 21 [Christ] whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.
Heb 1: 2 [God] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of ALL THINGS, by whom also he made the worlds;
John 1: 1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. ALL THINGS were made by him; and WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE.
Psalms 67:7 God shall bless us; and ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH shall fear [reverence/honor] him.
Psalms 72: 8 HE SHALL HAVE DOMINION also from sea to sea, and from the river UNTO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.
John 6: 45 "It is written in the prophets, And THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD. EVERY MAN therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, COMETH UNTO ME." And ALL THY CHILDREN SHALL BE TAUGHT OF THE LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
Isaiah 26: 9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD will learn righteousness.
Isaiah 11: 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for THE EARTH shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
Habakkuk 2: 14 For THE EARTH shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
Phil 2: 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and do of his good pleasure.
Rom 14: 11 for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For TO ME SHALL BOW EVERY KNEE, and EVERY TONGUE SHALL BE ACCLAIMING GOD! [CLNT]
John 1: 12-13 Yet whoever obtained Him, to them HE GIVES THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, TO THOSE who are believing in His name, who were BEGOTTEN, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but OF GOD. [CLNT]
Rev 15: 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for ALL NATIONS shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Isaiah 66: 18 For I know their works and their thoughts; it shall come, that I WILL GATHER ALL NATIONS AND TONGUES; and THEY SHALL COME, AND SEE MY GLORY.
John 3: 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL THINGS into his hand.
John 17: 1-2 These things speaks Jesus, and lifting His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, come has the hour. Glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son should be glorifying Thee, according as Thou givest Him AUTHORITY OVER ALL FLESH, that EVERYTHING which Thou hast given to Him, He should be giving it to them, even life eonian." [CLNT]
John 6: 37 "ALL that the Father giveth me SHALL COME TO ME; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
John 6: 39 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day."
1Cor 4: 5 therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall EVERY MAN have praise of God.
John 6: 44 [Quoting Jesus] "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW HIM; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6: 65 And he said, "Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM OF MY FATHER."
1Cor 12: 3 Wherefore I am making known to you that no one, speaking by God's spirit, is saying "Anathema is Jesus." And NO ONE IS ABLE TO SAY "Lord is Jesus" EXCEPT BY HOLY SPIRIT. [CLNT]
Matt 11: 27 "ALL THINGS have been delivered to Me by My Father, and NO ONE knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, AND THE ONE to whom the Son WILLS TO REVEAL HIM. [NKJV] [Echoed in Luke 10: 22]
John 5: 15b “… APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING ." [CLNT]
Acts 10: 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: [HE IS LORD OF ALL.]
Isaiah 45: 22-23 Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH for I AM GOD, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tongue shall swear [allegiance].
Daniel 4: 35 ALL the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; HE DOES ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?" [NKJV]
Jer 31: 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord: FOR THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive THEIR iniquity, and I will remember THEIR sin no more.
Col 1: 14-15 [Christ] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of EVERY creature.
1John 4: 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Cor 13: 8a LOVE NEVER FAILS: [New King James Version]
1Cor 13: 4-5 Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. LOVE IS NOT bragging, is not puffed up, is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not TAKING ACCOUNT OF EVIL, [CLNT]
1Chron 29: 11 Yours, O Lord, is the greatness, the power and the glory. The victory and the majesty; For ALL that is in heaven and in earth is Yours; Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and You are exalted as HEAD OVER ALL. [NKJV]
I have more verses if you desire. I started collecting them when I started reading Ray a year and a half ago. There are many, and it helps to see them all at once.
Thank you for your kind words! God be with you!
Janice/Caregiver
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