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Author Topic: Question on Sermon on the Mount  (Read 3238 times)

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gmik

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Question on Sermon on the Mount
« on: June 26, 2007, 01:51:26 PM »

Hi all.

In reading the sermon on the Mount in Matt 5  Ray correctly says that Jesus was talking to his disciples not all the multitudes. 

At the end of Matt 7 it says that the throngs were amazed at such teaching.

Did I miss something??  I just reread all of Part C Hell.  How did the multitudes hear about His conversation w/ the 12??

Thanks in advance!
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mari_et_pere

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2007, 02:08:46 PM »

I see what you mean. Matthew chapters 5, 6 and 7 are the Sermon on the Mount, except for the last two verses of chapter 7:

Mat 7:28  And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29  For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.


I looked up the word "people" in vs 28. In the greek: [emphasis mine]

G3793
ὄχλος
ochlos
okh'-los
From a derivative of G2192 (meaning a vehicle); a throng (as borne along); by implication the rabble; by extension a class of people; figuratively a riot: - company, multitude, number (of people), people, press.

Since it's "a vehicle" and "borne along" I'd say that "the people were astonished at his doctrine" because it spread through word of mouth. As in a/the disciples told one, the one told another, so on and so forth. If I'm wrong let me know! (I'm sure someone will)  ;D

Matt


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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2007, 03:46:27 PM »

Hi all.

In reading the sermon on the Mount in Matt 5  Ray correctly says that Jesus was talking to his disciples not all the multitudes. 

At the end of Matt 7 it says that the throngs were amazed at such teaching.

Did I miss something??  I just reread all of Part C Hell.  How did the multitudes hear about His conversation w/ the 12??

Thanks in advance!

Did Christ have alot of disciples at that point? I thought he was talking to all the disciples he had, not just the 12, but i could be wrong, haha.
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jackson

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2007, 03:59:49 PM »

Hey Gena,

I do believe lilitalienboi16 is correct on this.  Jesus called many to be disciples (the throngs mentioned) but only chose a few as apostles.

Jackson
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mari_et_pere

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2007, 04:24:02 PM »

It is correct that he had more than 12 disciples eventually. They probably had a little corporate feel going. May be correct to say that all the disciples, wether it were 12 or 100, were there. I noticed when I was looking up the word "people" in Matt 7:28 that most versions say "crowds" or "multitudes". Only a couple say "people" and only one says "throngs."

Mat 7:28

(CKJV)  And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at His doctrine;
 
(ALT)  And it happened, when Jesus finished these words, the crowds were being astonished at His teaching,

(AMP)  When Jesus had finished these sayings [the Sermon on the Mount], the crowds were astonished and overwhelmed with bewildered wonder at His teaching,

(ASV)  And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching:

(BBE)  And it came about, when Jesus had come to the end of these words, that the people were surprised at his teaching,

(CEV)  When Jesus finished speaking, the crowds were surprised at his teaching.

(CLV) And it came, when Jesus finishes these sayings, that the throngs were astonished at His teaching,

(Darby)  And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his doctrine,

(DRB)  And it came to pass when Jesus had fully ended these words, the people were in admiration at his doctrine.

(EMTV)  And so it was, when Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at His teaching,

(ESV)  And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,

(GNB)  When Jesus finished saying these things, the crowd was amazed at the way he taught.

(GW)  When Jesus finished this speech, the crowds were amazed at his teachings.

(ISV)  When Jesus had finished saying all these things, the crowds were utterly amazed at his teaching,

(KJV+)  And2532 it came to pass,1096 when3753 Jesus2424 had ended4931 these5128 sayings,3056 the3588 people3793 were astonished1605 at1909 his846 doctrine:1322

(KJVA)  And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

(LITV)  And it happened, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at His doctrine.

(MKJV)  And it happened, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His doctrine.

(Murdock)  And so it was, that when Jesus had ended these discourses, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching:

(NASB)  (23)When Jesus had finished these words, (24)the crowds were amazed at His teaching;


(NKJV)  And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching,

(NLV)  Then Jesus finished talking. The people were surprised and wondered about His teaching.

(NIV)  When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,

(NLT)  After Jesus finished speaking, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,

(RV)  And it came to pass, when Jesus ended these words, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching:

(TM)  When Jesus concluded his address, the crowd burst into applause. They had never heard teaching like this.

(Webster)  And it came to pass when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine.

(WNT)  When Jesus had concluded this discourse, the crowds were filled with amazement at His teaching,

(YLT)  And it came to pass, when Jesus ended these words, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching,


Matt
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mari_et_pere

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2007, 04:29:16 PM »

Continuing:

Mat 5:1  And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
Mat 5:2  And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,


[Insert the whole Sermon on the Mount here, then finish with:]

Mat 7:28  And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29  For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.


I'm not really seeing where it says the crowd couldn't hear Jesus talk. It says he went up into the mountain and the disciples went to him, then he taught them, and the crowds were amazed with his doctrine because he taught with authority, unlike the Scribes. I don't know where the teaching that the crowds didn't witness all of this came from. Is it possible that it's not correct?
Matt

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Kat

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2007, 05:15:32 PM »


Hi Gena,

Mat 5:1 But, seeing the multitudes, He went up into a mountain,—and, when He had taken a seat, His disciples came unto Him;

So He is with His disciples to start with, then in Mat 7:28, He was with the multitude.

Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus ended these words, with astonishment were the multitudes being struck at His teaching;

Now we also have Luke's version of this same sermon with the disciples and the multitude.  And here I think it may show Jesus wasn't speaking to them at the same time? 
It starts out with Jesus calling all His disciples together and choosing out the 12, in Luke 6.

Luke 6:13 And, when it became day, He called His disciples, and chose from them, twelve, whom also he named, Apostles,—

I think verse 13 is when Jesus was up on the mountain with all the disciples, then in verse 17, it says He came down and spoke to the multitude.

Luke 6:17 and, coming down with them, He stood upon a level place, also a great multitude of His disciples,—and a great throng of the people, from all Judaea and Jerusalem and the sea-coast of Tyre and Zidon, who had come to hearken unto Him and to be healed from their diseases;

But when we go down in Luke 6 to verse 20, He is speaking to the disciples, so this is not in chronological order.

Luke 6:20 And, He, lifting up his eyes towards His disciples, was saying:—Happy, ye destitute, for, yours, is the kingdom of God.

So if you go down to verse 39, this now seems to be when He starts to speak to the multitude?  As it says, He told 'them' a parable.  He always spoke to the multitudes in parables.  When He began to speak to the disciples in verse 20 He referred to them as His disciples.  Now it is referring to 'them.'

Luke 6:39 He spake, moreover, a parable also, unto them: Can, the blind, guide, the blind? will not, both, fall into, a ditch?

Ok, in Matt. there is no division between what He said up on the mountain and then when He came down and spoke more to the great multitude there.  It seems like it was the same day and was maybe was two sermons.  The first just for His disciples and later He came down to the multitudes.  Matt. seems to have just put it all together.
But when you put the 2 versions from Matt and Luke together you get a better idea.
Well that is just what makes sense to me, I hope you could follow that  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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gmik

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2007, 07:22:16 PM »

Good stuff everyone!!

Logistically, how did multitudes/people/throngs/crowds actually "hear" Jesus teaching?  As Ray said, how did the lame climb up the mtn? Children etc lots of movement I would suppose.

I like the idea of Jesus talking just to the disciples, just telling THEM the sermon.  It falls in line w/ elect/chosen. But if the sermon was heard by ALL then I think it changes what Ray was trying to say.

Perhaps, he also spoke again when he came down, or maybe it was just "word of mouth".

I will try to cut/paste that part.
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gmik

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2007, 07:30:50 PM »

abundantly clear that Jesus was not addressing the Pharisees, or Saducees, or the Priests, or Scribes, or even the multitudes which did not follow Jesus up the mountain, but waited for His return. Rather, Jesus addressed His Own disciples (of whom there were initially, many) who followed Him up the mountain. These only He instructed regarding a much higher standard of conduct and judgment:

"...and when He was set, His DISCIPLES came unto Him" (Matt. 5:1)

"And He opened His mouth, and taught THEM [His disciples]" (Ver. 2).

"Blessed are YE [all you disciples]..." (Ver. 11).

"...for great is YOUR [disciples'] reward..." (Ver. 12).

"YE [disciples] are the salt of the earth..." (Ver. 13).

"YE [disciples] are the light of the world..." (Ver. 14).

_____________________________________________________

So Ray def. says He was just talking to His disciples.

Ray does say the multitudes met Him down the hill.

My question.  Is the Sermon for the elect/chosen or for everyone who "follows" Jesus.  This is also the section that says "many will say Lord, Lord...."
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mari_et_pere

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2007, 02:39:47 PM »

Quote
My question.  Is the Sermon for the elect/chosen or for everyone who "follows" Jesus.  This is also the section that says "many will say Lord, Lord...."

While 'everyone who "follows" Jesus' might get something from it, I'm sure "the elect/chosen" get MORE. They get the spritual aspect that's hidden behind doctrine and misunderstanding. Of course who is who and who gets what is totally up to Him.

IMHO.

Matt
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DuluthGA

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2007, 02:40:45 AM »

Hi all,  I just checked the KJV with Strongs at the Crosswalk Bible Study Tools site, and the definition given for the Greek "ochlos" is

#1    a crowd   
#2    a casual collection of people

There are more definitions that follow.

With praise to Him, Janice
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gmik

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2007, 12:16:22 PM »

Hi.  A crowd vs. a casual collection of people seem to be different to me.

Ex/  I had a "casual collection of people" over for dinner.
                                  or
      There was a crowd protesting the war.

If Jesus was teaching the "casual collection"-that could be the disciples.

How did the crowds/throngs/multitudes hear about it??
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Kat

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2007, 01:02:54 PM »


Hi Gena,

Quote
If Jesus was teaching the "casual collection"-that could be the disciples.

How did the crowds/throngs/multitudes hear about it??

What it seems like to me, after hearing Ray talk about how the multitudes followed Jesus around.  When He started His preaching, He was also healing.

Mat 4:24  So His fame spread throughout all Syria, and they brought Him all the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, those oppressed by demons, epileptics, and paralytics, and He healed them.

He became very well known for His healing the people.  Can you imagine how it must have spread to all the area about this Man that healed everybody
But they did not know what He looked like, they did not have pictures, people knew of Him, but did not know what He looked like.  So He could move about to some degree without people realizing who He was, at first anyway. 
I think the people were not that interested in hearing Him preach, they didn't even understand what He was saying.  They came to be healed!  And maybe sometimes they had to wait around and listen to Him preach, before He would start healing them. 
So I think people came from all around just to be healed.  They would come to an area where they heard He was and wait around for Him to start healing.
That's just what I think.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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gmik

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2007, 02:31:37 PM »

Yes Kat.  I agree.  Healing was most on their minds and a physical kingdom to overthrow Rome.
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DuluthGA

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2007, 02:07:28 AM »

Hi, Well I've noticed both Hebrew and Greek words may have many and various meanings.  For example the Hebrew for 'rib' that Ray recently told us about is "tsela."

When checking the Strongs [again at Crosswalk Bible Tools as that's what I always use], here's the listing:

side, rib, beam
rib (of man)
rib (of hill or ridge)
side-chamber or cells
rib, plank, board
leaves (of door)
side (of ark)

And further down we learn how many times that word was translated as many of these.

So I would take the definition of a 'casual collection of people' as accurate and at face value.

Peace and joy, Janice

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gmik

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Re: Question on Sermon on the Mount
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2007, 07:03:39 PM »

I just re read this entire thread.  It is much more settled in my mind now.

You all are great teachers!

Thanks so much!! :D
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