> General Discussions
Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
hillsbororiver:
Hi Chris,
Your point is well taken, as a matter of fact this lamenting by Moses through Malachi about the disobedience and faithlessness of most of Israel streams through all the books of the Old Testament. My point was not that Israel was obedient to the laws & statutes of God but that as cruel some of these judgments may seem to be they do not include eternal or even extended torture, yes, some of them may seem extreme but unless the wronged party asked for compensation or retribution there was no punishment at all. Do you think that this was a lesson in having mercy? Unless judgment was requested by the wronged party there was no punishment, if it was requested there was an outline given (by God) so that the punishments would not take away an arm for the loss of a finger or a leg for the loss of a toe. The accuser knew what he may bring upon the accused and if they were merciful toward those who wronged them (such as your example about parents stoning their children) these punishments were not carried out.
The mainstream christian doctrine is that eternal torture is the "just reward" for even the most minor unrepented sin, even if one had never been introduced to the message and Person that is our Savior, Jesus Christ. The One who is truly merciful has been portrayed as a maniacal, vengeful madman who does not have the time (can't wait until it's too late) to save many of those He created from a torturous eternity because His busy schedule just won't allow for it. They also portray Him as a hypocrite, the One who admonishes us to have mercy and forgive those who mistreat us will burn, torture and punish those who have wronged Him, or even those who never were fortunate enough to have a knowledge of Him at all will be tormented without any hope of being reprieved. It is insane.
Bottom line, the worst punishments of the OT pale in comparison to what the churches claim to be the justice of our Lord.
--- Quote from: skydreamers on June 27, 2007, 10:35:55 AM ---
Hi Joe,
You know, that lists reminds me of how I once struggled with the sabbath issue. I had committed myself a long while back to reading excerpts of the old testament (even though I really didn't want to, nor did I understand much of it) and I remember coming across a scripture where God said, through Moses, to stone a man who was found picking up sticks on the Sabbath.
--- End quote ---
Hello Diana,
I also struggled for a time with the sabbath issue, the Adventists were very persuasive, I even believed it long after I left their church! ;)
It was a real eye opener when I read Ray's article(s) on Paul the perfect lawkeeper and at the same time the world's worst sinner, proving that nothing in the physical realm saves or justifies without faith in Christ.
http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html
THE CHIEF OF SINNERS WAS THE PERFECT LAW KEEPER
Now then for the shocker! In I Tim. 1:15 we read this:
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation [in other words, what Paul is about to say is the absolute truth and worthy of considerable contemplation] that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, OF WHOM I AM CHIEF"!!
I covered these verses in great detail in a previous installment. Paul REALLY WAS the WORST, PREEMINENT SINNER THAT HAS EVER LIVED. Paul was truly "CHIEF of sinners"!! And we read where Paul was once "BLAMELESS in the keeping of the law of Moses."
Now then, WHEN was Paul (1) "BLAMELESS IN LAW KEEPING"? And WHEN was Paul (2) "the CHIEF OF SINNERS"? The answer: AT THE SAME TIME!!!
WHEN PAUL HAD REACHED THE ZENITH OF TOTAL OBEDIENCE AND ZEAL TO GOD UNDER THE OLD COVENANT LAW OF MOSES, IT CAUSED HIM AT THE SAME TIME TO BE THE WORLD’S WORST SINNER!!!
Paul was both THE MOST PERFECT LAW-KEEPER AND THE WORLD’S WORST SINNER, AT THE SAME TIME!!!
NO WONDER PAUL WROTE:
"Who also makes us competent dispensers of a NEW covenant, NOT of the letter, but OF the spirit, for the letter KILLS but the spirit gives LIFE" (II Cor. 3:6).
The Old Covenant written in Ten Commandments on stone tablets was an "ADMINISTRATION OF DEATH" (Ver. 7). And the letter will ALWAYS KILL:
"They shall put you out of the synagogues; yea, the time comes, that whosoever KILLS YOU will think that he does God service [by following the law of Moses under the Old Covenant]" (John 16:2).
To prove to God his GREATEST ZEAL, Paul persecuted and slaughtered the church, which was legal for him to do under the authority of the High Priest, Chief Priests, Elders and Council at the Temple in Jerusalem, of whom Jesus Himself said, "They SIT IN MOSES SEAT." And it was this very ZEAL FOR GOD that also made him the world’s WORST SINNER! Unbelievable! UNBELIEVABLE!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!
But we must believe it—it is the Word of God!
Amen to that!
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Chris R:
Hi Joe,
Sure, in that light i agree whole heartedly, I hadnt thought about the mercy one could show, if in fact they were the ones wronged. Very interesting!
As for the shadows these scriptures mirror, it warrants more study on my end. As for the mainstream christian doctrines, we both know how pathetic that can be.
Thanks
Chris R
DuluthGA:
Thanks very much Joe and Chris!
I am now copying that link #7 to the LOF series, but I'm a bit confused. I already have a #7 copy printed out and it has a different title "Church Heresey Came Long Before Bible Errors" and appears to have different content.
Was there a different series at one time that got remade? Because as I scan through what I'm printing out now, the topics are familiar. Just curious and again thanks. I want to READ IT ALL and not miss a thing!
I gave the SDAs a shot that lasted 2 years when about age 30 and can relate to still wondering about the Sabbath years later although not being in a church since then, 22 years ago. Funny!
Great insight into OT!
Thanks so much! Janice
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: DuluthGA on June 30, 2007, 12:27:55 AM ---
I am now copying that link #7 to the LOF series, but I'm a bit confused. I already have a #7 copy printed out and it has a different title "Church Heresey Came Long Before Bible Errors" and appears to have different content.
--- End quote ---
Hi Janice,
I am sure you know by now that the portion of LOF #7 I pasted above was near the end of the paper and the title is actually a subtitle within the article. Sorry for the confusion.
My church experience also included the SDA church for about 2 years as well, I was not very good at Adventism, most would say "miserable failure" about sums up my resume' as a member there. But like you the Sabbath was a big issue for me, not that I kept it very well (as a member) or even tried to once I left, I still did carry that belief with me for the 30+ years after leaving that church. Even after "stumbling" on to Bible Truths it took me about 6 months to understand the spiritual significance of the Sabbath vs. the physical "Sign and Seal of the Living God" as the Adventists sell it.
His Peace to you,
Joe
hillsbororiver:
Chris,
What you stated earlier is so true, Israel was not especially good at keeping the laws of God but they were even worse at the mercy & compassion commands the Lord spoke to them through the Prophets, the men of old.
Zec 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and show mercy and compassions every man to his brother:
Zec 7:10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart. (It seems like some of the groundwork of the New Covenant was being made here.)
The whole chapter of Zechariah 7 deals with this hard heartedness of His people, as do many others of course. There is something about the book of Zechariah I find especially speaks to me for some reason, I am sure we all have certain chapters and books of the bible we can more readily relate to or speaks more clearly to us as individuals.
His Peace to you,
Joe
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version