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[mrsnacks]

Jesus never said kill your enemy. He said to love them. And those who use the sword will die by the sword.

So does that mean God is opposed to His children fighting in combat ? We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the American revolution. So does that mean that the revolution was not of God ? How about the fact that God raised up kingdoms to fight and war with other nations such as Israel.

Was the loving thing to do after 9/11, Pearl Harbor,  was to not retaliate.

I would welcome some comments. Thanks

[Craig]

Mr. Snacks,

What would Jesus do?  Would he have fought or retaliated?

What Jesus would do, we should do.

Craig

[Sorin]

Jesus never said kill your enemy. He said to love them. And those who use the sword will die by the sword.

So does that mean God is opposed to His children fighting in combat ? We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the American revolution. So does that mean that the revolution was not of God ? How about the fact that God raised up kingdoms to fight and war with other nations such as Israel.

Was the loving thing to do after 9/11, Pearl Harbor,  was to not retaliate.

I would welcome some comments. Thanks

Is that Mr. Snacks, or Mrs. Nacks?   

Anyways, I think the answer to your question is: Those who do go to war, and kill their enemies are not followers of Christ. One may say "but, but, but... they're Christians". I rest my case. 

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

I guess there have always been fighting from the start....Cain and abel.  When there were more people to fight it turned into wars.  This is a part of the evil experience that we have in this world.  If there was not evil in this world, how would we learn the difference between good and evil.
But for the few called out of this world, we are not of the world.  we need to be separate from the ways of the world.

John 17:15  I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep them from the evil.
v. 16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

2Cor 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Falconn003]

mrsnacks

may we please, see the scriptures you are refering to " loving your enemies and so on...."

Just askin
Rodger

[gmik]

Mr. Snacks

As a government, probably the right thing to do may have been to at least defend our country.

As a person, wanting to follow Christ, then do what Jesus would do.

Remember most things in scripture are for the called, not for the nations or multitudes.

[mrsnacks]

mrsnacks

may we please, see the scriptures you are refering to " loving your enemies and so on...."

Just askin
Rodger

-------------------------
Didn't Jesus command us to love our enemies ? Didn't Jesus command us to love one another ? Didn't Jesus command us not to return evil with evil ?

[mrsnacks]

Mr. Snacks

As a government, probably the right thing to do may have been to at least defend our country.

As a person, wanting to follow Christ, then do what Jesus would do.

Remember most things in scripture are for the called, not for the nations or multitudes.

---------------------------------

So to kill in defending our country would be the right thing to do ? But to my recollection all wars fought are said to be fought to defend our country. I have learned that that is not always been the case even though our government says differently.

So would the elect stand beside the JW's in not going to combat and refusing to obey if sent to war ?

[mrsnacks]

Jesus never said kill your enemy. He said to love them. And those who use the sword will die by the sword.

So does that mean God is opposed to His children fighting in combat ? We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the American revolution. So does that mean that the revolution was not of God ? How about the fact that God raised up kingdoms to fight and war with other nations such as Israel.

Was the loving thing to do after 9/11, Pearl Harbor,  was to not retaliate.

I would welcome some comments. Thanks

Is that Mr. Snacks, or Mrs. Nacks?   

Anyways, I think the answer to your question is: Those who do go to war, and kill their enemies are not followers of Christ. One may say "but, but, but... they're Christians". I rest my case. 

-----------------------------------------

Mr Snacks . You rest your case ? Is it that simple ? Aren't there some wars justified and others not ?
If the US were attacked ( I am not talking about 9-11) you would oppose the US to retaliate ?

[Chris R]

Hi Mr.Snacks

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.    But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mat 5:43-44

It is doubtful that America would fold up her tents and surrender to any foreign power, It is scriptural that Those obeying Christs Commandments could not kill his enemies.

Gods plan and purpose includes wars, rumors of wars, Evil, Hate, These things are of this world, But are we to be part of this world?

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. [Rom 12-2]

[mrsnacks]

But aren't we called to fight and war against evil ? But to what extent ?  Are Christians called to fight immorality by aligning themselves with organizations such as Operation Rescue or let's say Civil Rights organizations ?

I would say no. Because only Christ can transform and change the person from the inside out. I cannot change the person from practicing homosexuality or from being pro abortion to a person with Christian values. I think if a person is brought to Christ and begins to have Christ living in him/her- then and only then will he/ she change from ungodliness to being Christlike. It is a process but there is no other way. Any other change is at a superficial level.

[mari_et_pere]

Hey Snacks, I used to think of the same questions you brought up here. I think there's plenty of people who will go fight wars. I don't have to get involved (and wouldn't anyway) I think you're right, and yet who's ultimately responsible for the wars? U.S.? Saddam? Japan? Hitler? God?

Me thinks the latter.

Matt

[ciy]

The battle is never ours.  It is the Lord's.  We are not to trust in man or the arm of flesh or the work of our hands.  We are to put all of our trust in the Lord.  If God had meant for Germany to conquer the world the Allied forces could have been 10 times larger and more powerful than they were and we would still have lost the war.

All is of God. And it will not be accomplished in this age, but the peace of God will reign over all of creation in time. 

We can have peace within ourselves by dying to Christ and putting all of our trust in God.

CIY

[Extol]

I think Gandhi had a much better idea what it means to "Resist not evil" (Matthew 5:39) and "overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:17) than most Christians do:

"I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions.... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."

Gandhi, Mahatma (1972). Non-violence in peace and war, 1942–[1949]. Garland Pub. ISBN 0-8240-0375-6.

[Craig]

I think if a person is brought to Christ and begins to have Christ living in him/her- then and only then will he/ she change from ungodliness to being Christlike. It is a process but there is no other way. Any other change is at a superficial level.

Bravo, Snack you nailed that.

Remember Christ said live by the sword and die by the sword.

You can never forcefully change anyones opinion by beating it into them.  Or threatening them (hell), they are just the same old filthy rags.  On the outside they may agree with you and want to be "one of the guys" but inside they are the same ole beast.

Craig

[excellenttrader]

Does the answer change any if you scale the question back just a bit?  Instead of looking at 9/11, etc. how about this...

If Jesus is walking down the street and somebody comes up to Him and hits Him, then He turns the other cheek. 

But what if He's walking down the street with His mother, Mary, and somebody comes up and hits her?

What does He do?  Does Jesus look at Mary and tell her to turn the other cheek for this attacker or does Jesus defend her and beat this attacker down? 

Is He showing love to his mother by not defending her?  Is Jesus showing love to the attacker by not stopping him/her from committing this crime? 

Could Jesus be showing love for both by defending her and beating this attacker as necessary to stop them from hurting her anymore? 

Mike

[mrsnacks]

I think so.
I do have a question. Didn't Jesus tell the disciples to carry a sword at one point in the gospels ? He didn't tell Peter to not carry his sword before the incident in the garden.

So God is responsible for wars ? Even God caused and raised up armies against other nations such as Israel. So He is behind it all. This is a bit confusing to me. Take for instance the Father dragging us to Him. If God didn't drag us we wouldn't come right ? So if God didn't raise up armies to fight other countries- would wars happen ? I know we would say yes because men's hearts are evil and wars are inevitable so why does God have to raise or cause a nation to rise up against another nation ?

If someone came up to my mother and started to beat on her - the loving thing for me to do is to stop him at all costs. That is being loving to my mom and a loving thing to do to the attacker. By beating him and putting him away is a loving thing to do to the potential  would be victims of this criminal. That would be me laying my life down for my mom. I am risking getting hurt or killed doing this. To not do anything would be evil.

[Kent]

I sure do hope that I am not around someone that uses the "turn the other cheek" argument when I need some help, or when one of their loved ones is attacked.

Even Ray says that we have the right to self defense in one of his letters.
Self defense has nothing to do with hate. It has everything to do with stopping an attack.

Anything else is cowardice, IMO

[Kat]

God being totally sovereign, do you think He is not only aware, but caused any situation that you might find yourself in.  If someone tried to do you or your mother harm, do you think this is out of His control?
Is there a single scripture of Christ or any of His believers defending themselves?
But there are scripture that state otherwise.
Here is the email on self defense.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1516.0.html

> What do you believe the bible says about personal self
> defense? If you can not answer me now I would like to
> see something on your site in the future. Thank you.


Dear Michael:

The Bible says: "But I say unto you, That ye RESIST NOT EVIL, but whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matt. 5:39).

God be with you,

Ray
--------------------------------------------------

1Pe 3:12  For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."
v. 13  Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good?
v. 14  But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[YellowStone]

I think if a person is brought to Christ and begins to have Christ living in him/her- then and only then will he/ she change from ungodliness to being Christlike. It is a process but there is no other way. Any other change is at a superficial level.

Bravo, Snack you nailed that.

Remember Christ said live by the sword and die by the sword.

You can never forcefully change anyones opinion by beating it into them.  Or threatening them (hell), they are just the same old filthy rags.  On the outside they may agree with you and want to be "one of the guys" but inside they are the same ole beast.

Craig

Craig, perhaps I am slow and if I have read your post wrong, then please forgive me.

People who live in glass houses should never throw stones. Oh it is so easy condemning our leaders and military for "killing" our enemies, while we live in a nation that has only ever had one serious attack on the main land in it's history. (forgive me if I am wrong, I have only been a citizen for 2 years) Is not the peace, saftey and the right to even converse online in this forum a direct result of the many decisions and sacrifices made by many commanders and countless young men and women who gave their life for the freedom we enjoy.

Yet there is more to this than simply letting others do our fighting for us, for are we not instructed to be in subjection to our earthly rulers whom are there and ordained by God himself. Who is one denying, if one refuses to serve in the millitary for "scriptual" reasons.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Rom 13:2  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Rom 13:3  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Rom 13:4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. 

Rom 13:5  Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake

Well this is how I see it.

Love in Christ,
Darren