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Author Topic: I need some help with a question.  (Read 5195 times)

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Dean Peterman

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I need some help with a question.
« on: July 04, 2007, 02:08:57 PM »

Dear Friends,

I have been reading Ray's articles and they have been helpful.  I am trying to put together a basic understanding of what is being said.  Can someone give me a brief outline of God's basic plan for his creation.  I just sort of need a road map so I understand what people are talking about.  Right now it seems like disconnected pieces in my mind.  What I understand so far is that God created us and has plans for us but what is our ultimate destiny?  Are we going to live on the earth as humans are we going to be spirits beings in heaven.  Can someone give me a brief explanation or give me an address of one of Ray's articles to read.  It would be so helpful to at least have a basic idea of where we are going. 

Also, I inadvertently started a lot of controversy with some of my questions previously.  So please, understand I am not challenging anyones beliefs I only want to understand what is being said.  I have no desire to cause any problems with anyone here.  I read all of the posts and felt bad that other people were disputing with each other.  My friends, lets love each other.  In my own life I never want to hurt anyone.  Jesus said turn the other cheek so I make it a habit to never respond in anger or harsh words to anyone.  This does not mean someone should never be stern and forceful.  This is sometimes necessary.  However, for me since I know I am a worthless person and in myself not worthy of anything God has to give and that whatever I get from God is purely because of his love and kindness, therefore I feel I have no right to ever speak harshly to anyone or demean their beliefs in any way.  So be assured I am only here to learn.

Sincerely,

Dean 
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Redbird

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2007, 02:13:03 PM »

Hi Dean,

A while back, when Josh was a newbie, he wrote a short summary or outline of what he had concluded from Ray's teachings.  I printed it out, but gave it to a family member to read.  I will try to locate this again for you because I thought it was pretty good. :)

Peace to you,
Lisa
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2007, 02:24:14 PM »

Hi Dean,

This should help with the first part of your question,
 

Exposing Those Who Contradict

Part 4

GOOD AND EVIL

God created good and evil (Isa. 45:7).

That covers it all.

God planted the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" - not Satan.

When God planted that tree He said everything (including this tree) was "good." People think that God never intended for man to eat of that tree. Of course He did. How else could man know "good?" He had to eat of that tree.

"Good & Evil" are two separate things, but the "knowledge of good and evil" are not separate. One cannot have knowledge of good without knowledge of evil. It is impossible. And that's why they were both in the same tree. The same fruit. The first time I saw the truth of this verse, that both "good and evil" are in the same tree, I was shocked. I had never seen it before.

Pastor Hagee said that it was God's intention that Adam and Eve walk with Him in the Garden and obey Him. So Adam apparently went against God's intention. Untrue and impossible. If true, then God made a mistake-He sinned! If true, then God doesn't "know all" - He lied! Then God had to go from plan "A" to plan "B." How absurd. Adam did not withstand God's intention. God did NOT make a mistake. God does not lie. God knows all. God did not go to plan B, but rather intended for Adam to sin. At this point in Adam's life, God made him a vessel of dishonor (Rom. 9:21).

Religion and theologians have so clouded men's minds that many can't even think straight anymore. Most do not meditate at any length or depth on what they read in God's Word. If Adam and Eve had NOT eaten of the tree of the knowledge of "GOOD and evil," would they have had a realization that they had done a good thing by being obedient? No. They wouldn't. Why? Because they didn't have a knowledge of "good and evil." That knowledge is in the fruit of a tree that they wouldn't have eaten from. If Adam and Eve never obtained a "knowledge of GOOD and evil," how could they ever know ("knowledge") good?

Since this tree contained not only the knowledge of evil, but of good also, why did God forbid them from eating it in the first place? Or, why didn't He plant another tree in the garden that contained ONLY the knowledge of "good?" Why not two trees: (1) the tree of the knowledge of good, and (2) the tree of the knowledge of evil. They could have eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good only, and rejected the tree of the knowledge of evil, and all of the suffering of the human race would have never came about, and we would all be living in a garden of happiness and bliss to this very day. Or would we? Why didn't God do it this way? Because God is intelligent and wise, not stupid and foolish like the people who come up with questions as these.

God is good (Mark 10:18). God possesses a knowledge of "good and evil" (Gen. 3:22). God wants Sons (Eph. 1:5). Sons possess the attributes of their Father. There it is.

One cannot know good without a knowledge of evil. That's why they are both in the same tree, in the same fruit. We cannot know one without a knowledge of the other.

Eph. 2:10 says:

"For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works ... "

What is an "achievement?" Webster's Dictionary says: "to do ... succeed ... accomplish ... to get ... to reach by trying hard ... gain ... victory ... by skill, work, courage, etc." Webster's New World Dictionary, p. 7. Do we think "achievement," "goodness," or "virtue," are things that fall out of the sky like rain, or grow wild on trees?

Try to name ONE virtue that is not the direct result of overcoming some form of EVIL. If theologians insist that God never intended for man to sin or experience evil, then they are also saying, of necessity, that God never intended for man to have any virtue or to know good!

Let's not delude ourselves. Under the same circumstances as Adam, I would have sinned, you would have sinned, everyone would have sinned.

Yes, Adam and Eve "sinned" when they disobeyed and ate the fruit. But it was God who was behind it. He had already made provision for their salvation from sin.

"The Lamb slain from the foundation [Gk: disruption] of the world" (Rev. 13:8).

God wants sons. (Eph. 1:5). And God "designated us beforehand" for this purpose.

God knows "good and evil" already (Gen. 3:22). Man has no knowledge apart from contrast. We can't know what light is unless we also know darkness. We can't appreciate health without having experienced sickness. And we cannot fully appreciate life without also experiencing death. And so God created all these in order to produce sons.

http://bible-truths.com/part4.htm

His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,

Joe
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Redbird

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2007, 03:07:46 PM »

Hi Dean,

Well, I found it!  On Page 28, near the bottom of the page, in General Discussions, is Josh's (sj) post entitled MY UNDERSTANDING SO FAR.  Sorry for not putting up a link, as I am pretty much computer illiterate! :) 

Lisa
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2007, 03:25:12 PM »

Hi Dean,

Well, I found it!  On Page 28, near the bottom of the page, in General Discussions, is Josh's (sj) post entitled MY UNDERSTANDING SO FAR.  Sorry for not putting up a link, as I am pretty much computer illiterate! :) 

Lisa

Lisa, it's not that difficult to provide a link. All you do is left click and hold while dragging the mouse over the area you want to copy. After
you've highlighted the whole thing/link you right click and select "copy". Then you just come back here, post a reply and right click and select "paste". And it will look like this: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2715.0.html


If you want, you can also provide a link like this:  click here
This is a little more complicated to explain, but if you quote me, it will show you what I did to get it like that.

Take care,

Sorin

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Redbird

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2007, 03:38:56 PM »

Thank you so much Sorin,

And did I mention how happy I am that you are finding your way back home???

Peace, Lisa
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2007, 04:41:21 PM »

Hi Dean,

You have gotten some great replies.

I will share what I think.

God wants a family to share all of the wonders that He knows with. His plan and purpose is to bring this about. 
He started this with His first Son, Jesus Christ.  Now He is going to accomplish His whole plan through Him.  Christ created the world/universe by which this plan is to be carried out. 
Then Christ created the earth and all things on it, for the express purpose of where the human race would live and begin their journey. 
This age now, is designed to be a time to show the human race by experiences what is good and evil.  We are learning at this time what we are capable of, much evil.  This will continue until God has brought the amount of people into existence that He wants.  At this same time He is preparing a very small group of chosen elect. 
He has this all worked out, it is just being accomplished.  When He has reached the point when this age is accomplished, that only the Father knows, then He will send Christ to return in great power and glory. 
Satan will be removed, no longer will the adversary seek whom He can devour.
Christ will raise up the elect and He will set up New Jersalem and began to rule all nations.  This will began His reign with the elect on the earth, He will rule with total authority. 
He brings His judgments with Him, so the time to judge the world begin.  I believe this is the start of the great white throne judgment.  All will be raised and give an account, the elect are already with Christ, so now all judged will be cast into the Lake of fire and the Lake of fire is Christ and the elect. 
In this judgment people will learn righteousness.  I think that all these people will live on earth and be taught how to live right lives, according to spirit of the law.  They will be purged of all their false/evil/wrong ways, by the fire of the word, that the elect will administer.  To think that these spirit being/elect will be in charge and they will not allow the world to continue in it's present evil course.  He and the elect will rule with a rod of iron, by their presence.  Since they will be spirit and can go immediately anywhere, they can enforce Christ's rule.
The wrold must also be taught the truth, again by the elect.  So they will also be given God's Holy Spirit, upon repentance, and their eyes will be opened and they can learn the truth.  As God determines, when they have come a mature understanding of the truth, they will be changed to spirit and brought into the kingdom. 
For some it will take very little time for this, like say John the Baptist and the prophets of the OT, few stripes.  But other make take a very long time, there is a whole age for those that are deeply perverted to be purged and taught, but it will be accomplished.
Beyond this when all mankind are all in all with God?  I do not believe that the universe was made in vain, there must be a purpose for all those planets.  I know that it is grander than our wildest imagination.  We have a spectacular future, I just know it.

Well that is how I see it at this point, I put it in simple terms.  Hope it helps  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 07:10:54 PM by Kat »
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josh

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2007, 05:52:41 PM »

Lisa,

It's weird to here myself referred to as "when I was a newbie"... I still fill like a newbie, wide-eyed and in disbelief of all the wonderful things I have learned over that last year from hanging out with you guys here.

I really do appreciate all of the time and effort everyone here gives to this forum. I believe we all have grown as the result.

God's Peace.
Josh
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Redbird

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Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2007, 08:14:39 PM »

Josh,

It has been a pleasure to grow with you. :D So, by the way, are you still "in between things"?  Peace to you on this happy 4th of July.

Your sister in Christ, Lisa

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Dean Peterman

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Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2007, 01:39:14 AM »

Dear friends,

Thank you for all of your helpful information.  I will read all of it several times very carefully.

Sincerely,

Dean
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2007, 09:02:08 AM »

Hi Dean

When you wrote "for me since I know I am a worthless person"
I thought maybe i misunderstood what you were saying?

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."[Eph2:10]

Yes we were created spiritually weak, But we are a facinating creation, all of us! Look how well constructed we are....The anatomy is amazing.

Dont be so hard on yourself, All men learn righteousness, every man in his own order. Keep Looking..keep praying, you'll be totally amazed at what God shows you.

Peace

Chris
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josh

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Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2007, 03:49:06 PM »

Lisa,

It has been a pleasure! I believe if this forum ever closed down I would feel as though I lost a family member (or actually several family members.)

As for being "in between things" ... I'm 24, I feel "in between" EVERYTHING!

Hope you had a wonderful 4th also, and 5th, 6th & etc.

God's Peace.
Josh
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hebrewroots98

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Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2007, 05:29:32 PM »

KAT, that was an excellent and concise summary of our existence in HIM.  Thank you, that was very enlightening. :D
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skydreamers

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2007, 06:25:50 PM »

Hi Kat,

Quote
I do not believe that the universe was made in vain, there must be a purpose for all those planets.  I know that it is grander than our wildest imagination.  We have a spectacular future, I just know it.

What you said there has stirred my imagination plenty of times too....I know we have little to go on as to exactly what the future will be like for us, in terms of details...like you said, what will be the purpose for all those planets and galaxies????  There is the spirit, invisible world, but there is much that is physical, which holds much fascination, beauty and wonder...like outer space....Perhaps we will be able to enjoy both, the physical and the spiritual combined into one great glory.  Who knows.  Oh the questions that we simply cannot have answers for yet....but I love what you said, "We have a spectacular future"....so cool!!!!

Peace,
Diana
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Dean Peterman

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2007, 10:55:46 PM »

Thanks you for all of the great responses.  Chris, thank you for your encouragement.  Right now in my life I feel embarrassed, humbled, humiliated, ashamed, stupid and sometimes feel like crawling into a hole and disappearing.  I don't know if anyone else ever felt this way but I feel like a fool and someday I will have to admit to everyone I know that I have been a fool for a long time.  I dread that.  It will do no good to tell them that I now have found some deeper truth.  They will look at me like I am a brainwashed idiot.  When I was younger my family once had me kidnapped.  I was exploring different ideas and they didn't like it.  One day I was sitting in a restaurant talking to these people who had a different religious perspective and suddenly found myself being dragged away and thrown into a car and taken away.  My family and friends are very serious people.  But, despite all of this I am so glad I now know that hell is not a real place.  I will sing praises to God for showing me this truth.  I'll be humiliated and humbled but in the end I will know I am right.  This is one of the reasons I move so cautiously and carefully.  I feel like I am going to have to spend years defending my new beliefs.  I will be hounded to the end of the earth about this.  The looks of sadness and disappointment.  How did the devil win you over.  Why have I rejected Jesus Christ?  Yes, it is going to be very difficult.  Never the less I will not turn back from the course I am on.  Truth is too important.  Maybe I am a fool but I like to think I am being a fool for Christ. 

Sincerely,

Dean
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pylady

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Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2007, 12:11:54 AM »

Dean,

When I read your post my heart went out to you.  You don't need to feel stupid, or embarassed, or a fool.  You don't need to "admit" to everyone that you are a fool.  Instead tell whoever asks that you are learning new things from studying the Scriptures, and things that didn't make sense before are beginning to make sense.  The purpose of life is becoming clearer, and the future is looking brighter and brighter the more you learn.  You see a happy future for mankind in the long run.  :D  Who knows maybe they'll be curious enough to ask you what you're learning.  ;)

By the way, none of us know anything on our own!  But if our Lord chooses to give you eyes to see and ears to hear, then REJOICE!!  You are one of the FEW!

When you first learn the truth it can seem like a heavy burden because noone around you understands, or even cares about something so earthshattering to you.  But as Jesus often told His disciples, do not be afraid.  DO NOT BE AFRAID.  That is part of the message.  It is all in His hands.  He has it all undercontrol.  Dean, you are not responsible for saving anyone.  He will take care of it all. 

Enjoy what you are learning.  Live a godly life the best you can.  TRUST in Him.
Leave the rest to Him!   ;D ;D ;D

With Christian love,

        Cindy
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skydreamers

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Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2007, 01:42:36 AM »

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hebrewroots98

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2007, 02:38:56 AM »

Diana, what you and Kat said has got me wondering as well.  The thought of us living both physically and spiritually at the same time (or as my little guys says "when we die we will be invisible and be able to go through walls as Yeshua did") is an exciting concept if indeed that will be the case.  (What did Yeshua say about Gods'creation being as many as the stars in the heavens? )  (Ha, I actually won a 'star certificate' from a radio station that I could name after  anyone, so I named it after good ole mom and sent her the 'copywritten coordinates'and named the star Judith ...  ;) ???

Dearest Dean,
Don't be so hard on yourself brother, we have all made fools of ourselves at some point in the babe way of thinking in the past!  We are here to catch you if and when you fall my friend; you are not alone! (We are your new family...God has made us unified in the Same Spirit...let this comfort you!)  We have all felt as though we couldn't fit the pieces together to the great puzzle of our existence, but, be patient and wait on Him to show you in His timing.   Dean, you have a sweet and humble heart; as for the ones that you said were arguing...I think that the intentions are not to hurt one another, but to get overly passionate about our positions at times.  (I hope that I did not offend you by doing this?)  You're doing great; so don't let Satan steal your joy.  You are growing already as I can see it :D  
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Dean Peterman

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2007, 08:35:15 AM »

Thank you so much for the encouragement.  I think going through difficult times will make us stronger in the end.  My former church took a vote and disfellowshipped me but I won't let that bother me now.  Among Baptists what I believe now is considered heresy and differences of opinion are not tolerated.  However, I plan to move forward and let God lead me.

Sincerely,

Dean
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: I need some help with a question.
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2007, 11:27:33 AM »

Thank you so much for the encouragement.  I think going through difficult times will make us stronger in the end.  My former church took a vote and disfellowshipped me but I won't let that bother me now.  Among Baptists what I believe now is considered heresy and differences of opinion are not tolerated.  However, I plan to move forward and let God lead me.

Sincerely,

Dean

Dear Dear Brother,

Do not be swayed in every direction of the winds, Take time, read what is written on www.bible-truths.com Compare everything you read with scripture, use a good program like E-sword, Blue letter bible, Look for yourself, We cannot lead you anywere, But...BUT..once you have a truth..YOU HAVE IT!...God gives it to you.

No one hear will try and persuade you to do one thing, We cannot convince one single person of anything, Nor do we wish to....Read for yourself, find if these things be true..Dont take my word for it, Or that of anyone here, You must search for yourself.

May God give you wisdom in your search for truth.

Sincerely,

Chris R
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