> General Discussions
Spirit vs breath
hillsbororiver:
Hi Cindy,
Here is a bit from Ray's 'Exposing Those Who Contradict'
SPIRIT
When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.
SOUL
When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep, "The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16) This is substantiated by the fact that: "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6). Again: " ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).
Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.
The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)
souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)
souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)
souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)
souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)
souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)
life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)
souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)
souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)
none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)
honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)
even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)
souls can hear (Acts 3:34)
souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)
souls die (Rev. 16:3)
souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)
and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).
These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.
So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception). Your teaching is blatantly false and deceptive!
Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.
FROM KING JAMES TRANSLATION:
SPIRIT [pneuma] is translated LIFE in Rev. 13:15
SOUL [nephesh] is translated HEART in Prov. 23:7, etc
HEART [leb] is translated MIND in Prov. 21:27, I Sam. 9:20, etc.
SOUL [nephesh] is translated LIFE in Gen. 9:4, Lev. 17:11, etc
SOUL [nephesh] is translated GHOST in Job 11:2
SPIRIT [pneuma] is translated GHOST in Mark 1:8
SOUL [nephesh] is translated BEAST in Lev. 24:18.
BEAST [chay] is translated LIFE in Lev. 18:18.
SOUL [nephesh] is translated BODY in Lev. 21:11, Hag. 2:35, etc.
This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory.
The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.
I am amazed that people put up with such irresponsible teaching. You teach that man has immortality in his soul. The Scripture says man is "mortal," and "Our Lord, Jesus Christ ... Who ONLY has immortality." Which do you think is true - your teaching or the Scriptures? What part of the word "ONLY" don't you understand, Dr. Kennedy?
Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Not one Scripture says that man is "immortal" or has an "immortal" soul. Not one. "Our Lord, Jesus Christ: the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality" (I Tim. 6:14-16).
It is by means of the "resurrection" that God causes dead people to live again. The Apostle Paul said: "Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged" (Acts 23:6). The truth regarding the "resurrection of the dead" is not even taught in Christendom today. They teach that there are no dead people (only dead bodies). They teach that people are either alive on earth, alive in Heaven, or alive in Hell. What need have we for a "resurrection of the dead" if there are no dead people to resurrect? This, my friend, is heresy!
Paul also stated: "Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14-15). The very salvation of mankind rests on the resurrection. This is most important to understand: "For, if the dead are not being roused [resurrected], neither has Christ been roused. Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith-you are STILL IN YOUR SINS." (Acts 15:16-18). That is just how important the resurrection is, and according to you and most Christian theologians, it isn't necessary at all, because you teach that man has an immortal soul that goes directly to Heaven or Hell without resurrection and thus make a mockery of the very Word of God.
And where, Dr. Kennedy, is all the "hell fire and brimstone" in all these verses on body, spirit, and soul? Where? If you don't understand the Scriptures concerning God's punishment and chastisement on mankind, fine, but don't force them into these versus regarding "the dead." And don't turn "ages" into "eternities" either. I'll comment on punishment, gehennah, the lake of fire, etc. later.
TV ANALOGY
Here is an analogy that is applicable and easy to understand: God's spirit gives life to the body. Only in life does a man have consciousness or sensation. When God takes back His spirit, the body and soul are dead.
Picture a TV console as representing the human BODY with all its intricate circuitry and components.
Now picture ELECTRICITY as the invisible, powerful force representing God's life-giving SPIRIT.
Picture the blank PICTURE TUBE as representing the SOUL.
Without the electricity (God's spirit), the TV and picture tube (body and soul) are dead. All the time I hear preachers talking about our souls and our spirits as if they were one and the same. Soul and spirit are not one and the same.
Next plug in the electricity (God's spirit). The TV comes to life, and we see the picture tube (soul) animated. We see color, sound, dancing, singing, talking, intelligent conversations, all live via satellite. The dead TV becomes a living, visible, animated, intelligent entity-"Soul." But notice very carefully, the Soul (the animated picture in the TV tube) is not one of the original components. It is not a component in and by itself, but is rather the result of two other vital components, Body and Spirit (the TV console and electricity).
At bedtime I sometimes tell my daughter to give the TV a rest. When one turns off the "on/off" switch the TV goes to "sleep." The power light is still on, but the TV is blank and silent.
But now, pull the plug and take away the electricity (spirit) and what happens to the TV console (body)? It dies. It's just a box of circuits. Not even the power light is on anymore. If left unplugged it will, in time, decay and return to the dust of the ground.
And what happens to the colorful animated picture on the screen (soul) when we take away the electricity (spirit)? Want the real answer? Ask a child. Let several children watch TV together, then pull the plug and ask them where the picture went? A child will shrug his shoulders or say "I don't know" or say "It disappeared." Guess what? He is Scripturally correct on all three counts.
Without spirit there is no life and no consciousness. Without power a TV has no life and no animated picture. It's dead.
If you were to ask an ancient Hebrew person what happens to the soul (the thinking, feeling, animated, sentient personality of a man) at death, he would shrug his shoulders or say "who knows" or just say "it disappears." That's what "Sheol" meant to the Hebrews. It was a question mark. And the Greeks had their word for the same idea (Hades-the UNSEEN, the IMPERCEPTIBLE), and hades and sheol are synonymous in Scripture (Acts 2:27).
There is one more profound Scriptural truth that is also perfectly analogous to the operation of a TV, and that is this. Picture God's Throne as the Broadcast Headquarters. The TV picture Tube, by itself, is not the source or originator of the picture it portrays on the screen. It is a channel for the signal transmitted from the TV Station and Tower. It can only manifest and portray on its screen that which is sent from the source [God]. And often the source [God] uses intermediaries like satellites [Angels] to relay the signals.
In Scripture, death is called a "return" [Heb. shub]. Before we were born we had no body, no soul, and no perception of any kind. At birth God gave us a body, implanted to us His spirit, which gives the body perception (through the brain and the five senses). At death, we [shub] RETURN. The reversal of what happened at birth. The spirit returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), the body returns to the dust (all the elements of man's body are found in the ground or earth) (Job 10:9, Ecc. 3:18-21), and the soul returns to no perception again (the imperceptible or unseen-hades) (Acts 2:27 and Psalm 49:15). This is what the Scriptures very plainly teach: where all that man "is" came from, that's where all that man "is" returns to.
I hope this is of some help.
His Peace to you,
Joe
Kat:
Hi Cindy,
I too find myself wondering quite often about what is this Spirit, spoken of in the scripture. I feel like an understanding of Spirit is pivotal to understand God.
Ray has said many times God is spirit and God is invisible.
When ask what Spirit was, Jesus Himself said it was like the wind (John 3:08). And there is the scripture in Genesis, where breath is used to mean the Spirit. So Spirit is invisible and can not be likened to anything that is seen, and that is why it is likened to breath and wind. That brings about a preplexity, because as humans, we deal with physical things that are seen or heard or touched. We affirm things are real by some physical sense.
The Spirit is not something we grasp with our physical senses, but by the Spirit of Christ indwelling. We must move to a different realm of understanding in our minds, to begin to comprehend the Spirit.
The spiritual realm is invisible to this world, but is more real than all this, because it does not perish. John 6:63 says, "...the flesh profits nothing." Because the flesh will soon perish and be gone, "our life is but a vapour." And what else did Jesus say in that verse, "... The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."
Those that have Christ indwelling are being conformed to the image of Christ, they're eyes are being opened, the mind is being renewed. This is 'life' of the Spirit. With God's spirit indwelling then we are growing toward maturity in Christ, how do we know? By our fruit and works, that is evident of the Spirit indwelling. So that we will have the mature spirit that can stand before the Christ at His appearing.
I don't know if this was what you were needing, but I hope it helped :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
pylady:
I must apologize for an error in my post. The verse I quoted was John 6:63 not 6:6.
Jer, you said you see spirit "like" the power or energy that makes and keeps us alive. Yes, I see that. This seems to fit with excerpts from Ray's writings (a big thank you, Joe!) that God's Throne is like Broadcast Headquarters, and His spirit is the signal transmitted to make the TV work (alive).
Mark, yes, this study has grabbed hold of me for the same reason, to quote, "If somehow I could just figure it out I would discover some great treasure in His Word." Our Lord did tell us to seek for this treasure, and He makes those who seek a promise in Luke 11:10:
"For everyone who askes, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it shall be opened."
So He promises we will find if we keep seeking, but just doesn't tell us WHEN! :-X We have to wait until He thinks we're ready to receive it, but meanwhile we should keep seeking. At least that's how I understand it! :)
Kat, yes, that's exactly how I feel And the scripture you mentioned in John 3:8 keeps coming to mind.
John 3:8 "The wind (#4151) blows (#4154) where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit (#4151).
The Gr word translated "blow" here means to blow hard, i.e. breeze-blow. So we have three words in one sentence that are essentially the same word, but are translated by three different!? I have noticed other verses (wish I had written them down!) where the same word is used in different ways in the same sentence. It struck me that it's almost like the more we study God's thoughts in Scripture, the more they condense to one meaning - Jesus Christ! Didn't Ray say something like this in one of his papers?
Anyway, where I'm kind of stuck is in understanding the word spirit in John 4:24.
"God is spirit..."
I always thought this verse was speaking of God's nature. Just as we would say "I am human, so God is saying I am spirit. But now I wonder if, instead of this verse telling us of God's nature, maybe it is telling us what He is to us. He is our first breath of life - physical, and our second breath of life - spiritual (born again of spirit.
Maybe He is not explaining His nature to us - because our minds cannot while in the body understand His nature. But we can understand what He is to us - life (breath-giver), and His qualities (fruit of the spirit)?
These are just thoughts I'm having, and I may be totally in error. If so, I welcome any correction!
All this reminds me of an odd but lovely passage in 1Kings 19:11, 12
"So He said " Go forth and stand on the mountain before the Lord." And, behold the Lord was passing by!
and a great and strong wind was rendering the mountains and breaking in pieces the rocks before the Lord,
But the Lord was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake.
And after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing."
Going to the Hubble website link in another post gave me just a small idea of His tremendous power. Yet He gently gives us our first breath and guides us throughout our lives to teach us (it may burn sometime, but He doesn't crush us with His tremendous power), and for what? So we can be born again in the spirit to become His sons and daughters! He is gentle and merciful to us and comes to us as a gentle, refreshing breeze1
As I said before if anything I've written is in error I welcome corrections, and also comments. Sorry for being so long winded.
With Christian love,
Cindy
sorry about the underlining. don't know why once I turn it on I can't get it off.
I know I'm rather computer illiterate, but I thought all i had to do was press the underling button again to turn it off??? Anybody?
M_Oliver:
--- Quote from: pylady on July 09, 2007, 03:20:58 PM ---Kat, yes, that's exactly how I feel And the scripture you mentioned in John 3:8 keeps coming to mind.[/color][/color]
John 3:8 "The wind (#4151) blows (#4154) where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit (#4151).
The Gr word translated "blow" here means to blow hard, i.e. breeze-blow. So we have three words in one sentence that are essentially the same word, but are translated by three different!? I have noticed other verses (wish I had written them down!) where the same word is used in different ways in the same sentence.
--- End quote ---
Precisely. Wind and Spirit in the same sentence from the SAME Greek. There is no logic to it.
Mark
hillsbororiver:
Once again (at least in my mind's eye) Rotherham's translation is less fuzzy and appears to be more consistantly translated.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (King James)
John 3:8 The spirit where it pleaseth doth breathe, And the sound thou hearest; But knowest not whence it cometh and whither it goeth: Thus is everyone who hath been born of the spirit. (Rotherham's) This appears to say when we are resurrected and reborn incorruptable, immortal and Spirit, we will be able to be any place we want (pleaseth) whenever we want and be undetectable if we so desire, being able to suddenly appear and just as suddenly disappear.
John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (NIV)
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (New American Standard)
John 3:8 The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. (Amplified)
John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.' (Young's Literal Translation)
John 3:8 The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Darby Translation)
I have learned from Ray to check the Greek/Hebrew and the various translations to get a better perspective on verses that seem to contradict or are just unclear.
This is from the article "Which Bible is Best;"
Here are a few. I use the first three quite regularly, but, I am not recommending you buy any of them.
Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
The Emphatic Diaglott, 1912 edition (Greek/English Interlinear
You can read it all here, http://bible-truths.com/bible.htm
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version