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The lovey dovey Jesus

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aktikt:
I just wanted to add.  I think many of us, if not all, know what it's like to be a hypocrite.  I know I was a huge hypocrite / pharisee.  I like to think I'm less of a hypocrite/pharisee now.  I think Jesus used harsh circumstances and pain and suffering on me to change some of my hypocritical ways.  I think this is exactly what we see with His actions towards the pharisees. 

Josh

Deborah-Leigh:
Arcturus, please know that I do not wish to offend you, but I would like to add a little to your thoughtful post. 

I quote you:  "Ray teaches : SOMETIMES MAN’S GREATER SIN IS TRYING TO BE HOLY"

Which is perfectly true, but by whose will are they given to try?

Darren, that question for me, aims the error/fault/blame/excuse...AT GOD! Gods WILL is NOT for us to be evil. Gods PLAN is that we experience evil and through such that we be humbled and trained into His image.

I believe that man is but clay beneath the potters hand and contrary to man's given belief, were and are powerless to change until God moves one to do so.

Do you see that comment can be interpreted to again lead to passing ACCOUNTABILITY ONTO GOD for our evil actions, deeds and thoughts! That is Blasphemy! WE are ACCOUNTABLE. 

Rom 14 : 12 EVERYONE of us shall give an ACCOUNT of himself to God. God will not give account for us to Himself. We are not Gods master. Only Babylon teaches, believes and follows such nonsense.

It would be expedient, that is if this is your view, that you change/repent and move away from such false teachings. If your planned answer to God is going to be the same one you posted here, your account to God is that you are powerless to change and that it was up to God to change you. God might just answer you back about your awareness of I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me![/color]

What I am pointing out Darren, is that we are NOT ROBOTS! We are thinking feeling intelligent human beings. Shrugging off accountability is a dangerous attitude. If that is what you are doing then I exhort and warn you to change. If this is not the case with you.... ;D 8) then great! :)

I agree also with your next paragraph, the teaching that does come out of Babylon IS counter productive and yes: "The denial that the consequences of our lives are in Gods discretion not our own teaches man that he is God." But again are the same only repeating what they were given to hear, see by God himself?

NO WAYS !!!….Read Romans 1 again!

25…because THEY EXHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD for a lie ( THEY DID THIS NOT GOD)…and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen! 32. Though THEY ARE FULLY AWARE OF GOD’S RIGHTEOUS DECREE that those who do such things deserve to die, they do not only do them themselves bu APPROVE AND APLAUD OTHERS WHO PRACTICE THEM.

Does God really need to look at anyones heart, to see hidden motives? I had always believed this also, but then is one free to walk this earth and collect motives unbeknown to God? Well I will answer my own question, not according to my understanding.

Motives are God given

Are you SURE about that? MOTIVES are from GOD? What about the motive to blow up the twin towers…is THAT from God? What about the motive to defraud and swindle ones neighbour. Is that FROM GOD? I think that thinking is blasphemy! Is blasphemy from God? Motives are from the heart. The heart is from God. The heart is wicked and the motives that arise out of it are from the willfulness and foolishness of man acting out his own ways thoughts and plans. God gives some the opportunity to act out their folly and evilness and some find that their desire to do evil is prevented. You want to commit suicide but just can not do it. You want to kill the murderer who raped your daughter but just can not do it for real. We could all have been Adolf Hitler given the opportunity.

and are not for him to learn or discover, BUT for us.

God decides who to chastise and give repentance to yes. God decides who to call and choose, not us.

 I believe every opportunity given is an opportunity to 'test' the motives that we feel are 'our own'.

Yes. This follows upon taking the beam out of ones own eye and as Paul taught.judging oneself.

What is it that God has given one the opportunity to learn, for I feel our eyes and ears are opened. 

Phl 4:6 - Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God

I know what Ray is saying when he says: "Maybe it is about time some of you started to feel a little anger toward ....." Yet, I am not sure that anyone can feel anything until God intends it to be felt.

Ever felt paralysed? No feeling is a feeling too!

What I mean is, can I choose to be angry when God has given me to be complacent? Or similarly, feel love when God wants (demands) Anger?

I do not think God demands anything. He is not a circus trainer. He observes us as we move from loving evil to hating it and God gives the circumstances that surround this maturing process to some but not to others. Some do not want to grow up into the image of Christ and others want to hold onto their idols of their hearts at all costs unto death. God hardens the hearts of some and softens others but we respond to His training and we respond in accord to how we are as God is making us. This process to some will be visible and to others invisible. Some think they are just dandy in Gods eyes and others are more realistic about who God the Great I AM really is and how we shape up next to His Supreme Sovereignty. After all, He desires that we know Him.

Please understand that I agree with all that you are saying: But don't you think as I whole heartedly believe, that all that is, was and will be, .....is, was and will be of God and God alone.
You are mixing up the issue. Of course God will be all in all and all is of God even evil but BUT God has a purpose and a will and a plan and these are not the same things just like eternal is not the same as immortal and responsible is not the same as accountable.

I am not saying that God is evil, for who could say that of him,

But that is exactly what you are saying when you shift accountability for our evil hearts onto God. God is responsible yes, but, BUT WE ARE ACCOUNTABLE.

yet has a single word that has ever been heard, been spoken without his instruction?

Of course there have been words heard, spoken and professed WITHOUT Gods instruction. The OT is full of examples!

(molding) I know that I cannot direct my steps (Jer 10:23) or by a single thought change anything (Mat 6:27.)

God is the Author and finisher of FAITH. We are the authors and finishers of our wicked ways. God has no part in motives that act out executions with blunt rusty knives decapitating innocent heads.
I am nothing without him and I have nothing, even my faith, love and trust in Him are gifts from Him through his Spirit.

ALL good things are from God. Amen to that!
I fully realize that I might be 100% wrong on all that I have stated. If so, please know and understand that I am willing to stand correction. 

Yours with Love in Christ,
Darren

Rodger

What you say, for me,  shows that interior circumstances that exist within the inner landscape of our souls are also being encouraged by our God. HE  gives us our joy. 

Ecc 3: 13 And also that every man should eat and drink and enjoy the good of all his labour – it is a gift from God.

Job 8 : 21 HE will yet fill your mouth with laughter and your lips with youthful shouting.

Josh your question and observation is well made. The scriptures say that the experiences of evil are to humble us. These experiences are not random or uncaused. They are by design of God in consequence to our leanings either towards godly living or riotous evil.

Thank you for your testimony.

Diana

We should not counterfeit our feelings. Or act out how we think we should feel. Rather we should discern if we are luke warm and why. We should heed the words in Cor 3:6 GOD Who also MAKES US COMPETENT DISPENSERS OF A NEW COVENANT, not of the letter, but of the spirit, for the letter is killing, yet the spirit is vivifying, giving life.

If we are not yet competent, our aim should surely be to become so!  For we should move from the applause of men to the applause of God. I know this is a process but how can any know that such a process exists if it is not articulated and presented?

I have always leaned towards extending the proverbial “benefit of the doubt” towards theologians and their followers and have moved out of this grey area into accepting, as appalling as it is, that Church leaders and the so called men of the cloth, KNOW BETTER but still mislead and wave aside the Truth.

As Ray discloses of his spirit : “ I marvel that MORE PEOPLE are not totally EMBARASED  by the way the world of Christendom…peddles the Word of God… http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html

I urge us to question why that is if any be among the tolerance keepers towards the evil we are expected to resist, expose and deny.

Tolerance of the wolves is cruelty to the sheep! All will be accountable and our deeds will be tested as with fire. I simply warn, exhort and encourage non to be among those who loose their reward. That is my motive! ;D :D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Dean Peterman:
Dear friends,

This is a difficult but helpful thread.  My head is spinning trying to figure all of this out.  My own understanding of what Ray says is that Darren understanding is very accurate.  Darren, my friend, to me, your post was very helpful.  One of the confusing things for me in trying to understand this concept of free will is how someone can be speaking one moment as if there is no free will and then speaking the next moment as if they and everyone else has free will.  Darren, if your understanding is not correct, and I think it is, then I am totally confused.  I think I will go back and re-read Ray's article on this subject.  Thanks again Darren.  What you said made alot of sense to me.  Arcturus, please be careful about what you say on this subject.  You may be inadvertently saying something you will regret later.  I have read Ray's article on the Twin Towers and intend to go back and re-read because I am concerned you may have contradicted what Ray has written.  Below is an e-mail I found on the subject.

Dear Ray
In the letter I sent on July 23 about freedom of choice you answered me with this reply "we are not the captains of our own destiny ... you will quit smoking when GOD DECIDES YOU WILL QUIT SMOKING and not before"
If this is true, then we ARE puppets with God pulling the strings. This means that God is in charge of all sin.
If this is so why did Jesus have to suffer for our sins if we really are not in control of sinning?
If it is true then all of those TV evangelists are preaching about hell because GOD HASN'T DECIDED TO STOP THEM YET.
All the misinterpretations of the bible that cause people to hate God's children because they are different WONT STOP UNTIL GOD DECIDES.
Ray is this what you mean is happening unknown to us? I just want to understand what you are saying. I really am not being arrogant, even though its sounds that way.
I am a Christian for sixty years. For the past two years I have been researching past Christian history. It puts a new outlook on what I have read. I have always blamed mankind for the Spanish inquisition, slavery, white man slaughtering the American Indians, etc.

I just don't want to believe they were all GODS DECISIONS. Do you understand what Ii am trying to say Ray?
Very sincerely,
Grace
[Ray Replies]
Dear Grace:

Your feelings and thoughts are not unusual.  Many people who come into a knowledge of the Truth [Jesus] have a real battle on their hands for some time.

YES, God is in control of EVERYTHING--EVERY THING!!!
Consider the alternative of this fact. God IS NOT IN CONTROL OF ANYTHING!!! Would that make you happier? Of course not.  It's just that we want to place God where WE THINK HE SHOULD FIT INTO OUR FRAME OF THINKING.

Either God created His own ENEMY (Satan), or Satan created HIMSELF and God was helpless to stop him and has been loosing out to Satan by a ratio of ten to one for the past so many thousands of years. This is what Christendom teaches. This is NOT what the Scriptures teach.

By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet.  But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?

You ask why Christ should die for the sins of humanity which were known and brought about by God Himself? I would as you of what purpose would be Christ's crucifixion if it saved no one except those who somehow came to Christ by their own free will ASIDE from any "drawing of the Father"? 

The problem is, Grace, that we have been so brainwashed by the pagan and heretical theories of carnal-minded men that it is difficult to believe and rejoice in the plain, simple, and yet marvelously profound truths of God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!

Meditate on this theme for a couple of years, Grace, and it will all become very clear--trust me, it will!

Sincerely,

Ray

Deborah-Leigh:
Dear friends,

This is a difficult but helpful thread.  My head is spinning trying to figure all of this out.  My own understanding of what Ray says is that Darren understanding is very accurate.  Darren, my friend, to me, your post was very helpful.  One of the confusing things for me in trying to understand this concept of free will is how someone can be speaking one moment as if there is no free will and then speaking the next moment as if they and everyone else has free will.


Now who exactly does what you suggest Dean…that is one moment speaking as if there is free will and in the next speaking as if there is non? Who might you be referring to?

Rom 14:11,12 For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God…Consequently then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God”

Would you be referring to the Scriptures perhaps?  Would you be refering to the Author of the Scriptures? Is rendering an ACCOUNT a contradiction to you perhaps that upsets the acceptability of the fact that God is Sovereign? Of course not! You point your finger at me and state that YOU are AFRAID that I have contradicted Ray. You are so afraid for me you are going to find out where I have done such a thing that you say I will regret and YOU WILL BE THE ONE TO PROVE IT!

GO FOR IT DEAN! RUN….. But before you go,…JUST BEFORE YOU GO… be warned against being so swift to let loose discord. God hates false witness and it is abominable that you should publish that your motive to reread the Twin Towers is to find where you think I am contradicting Ray. WOW! Shouldn't that embarrass you????

 http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2259.0.html




….    Although dictionaries partly define responsibility as accountability; and accountability as responsibility, that is not their only usage.  Here is how I mean to use the two terms taken from my first paper ever posted on bibletruths.com--Kenney's sermon on Hell and Africans:

    RESPONSIBILITY

    Not only are all the billions of heathens who never heard the gospel not responsible for their own salvation, but neither are we responsible for our salvation either. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God hold man responsible for anything. This is just another man-made doctrine that clashes with the Scriptures.

    We can use the word "responsible" in a relative sense, such as: "It is a man's responsibility to provide for his family." We all know what the word means. But even if this man doesn't provide for his family, God will hold him accountable not responsible.

    The problem with your sermon, Dr. Kennedy, is that you want to present God as a "fair" God. You know most men have lived and died never knowing God or even hearing His Name, so you try to relieve God of His responsibility for His creatures. You know that there is "no other name under Heaven by which man must be saved." You do know that, don't you? I'm betting that you do.

    But God doesn't need to be relieved of His responsibility.

    Knowing that billions of heathens have lived and died, never hearing that Name or knowing the true God, (and since you have all these man-made doctrines that clash with the Word of God), you try to "get God off the hook." And so you place the burden of responsibility for being saved on man's shoulders. God is not "on the hook." He doesn't need your help, my help, a missionary's help, or anybody else's help to save His children. God does use teachers, pastors, etc. to acquaint people with His Word. But this is a privilege for us, not a necessity for God. Remember the Scripture, that God can "raise up stones" if needed. The Scriptures tell us that all men everywhere are accountable to God, not responsible:

    "For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart. And there is not a creature which is not apparent in its sight. Now all is naked and bare to the eyes of Him to Whom [God] we are accountable" (Heb. 4:12-13).

    Even the King James Version, with its thousands of discrepancies, does not even once in its fifteen hundred pages, use the word "responsible" or "responsibility."

    Yet churches evolve whole doctrines around this word "responsibility." Things like: "you're responsible for going to hell" or "it's your responsibility to accept Christ" or "the age of responsibility" or "everyone is responsible for his or her deeds." Strange to make so big a deal of a word that does not even appear in Scripture.

    When a minor (a child) commits a crime, even the unjust courts of our land do not hold him responsible. Is his crime simply overlooked? No. He must give an account for his actions. He is accountable. He might be the victim of a broken home, with a drunkard father, a prostitute mother, drug-hooked sisters, and gang-member brothers. Thus, he is not considered responsible. Nonetheless, he is still accountable.

    "Now I am saying to you that, for every idle declaration which men shall be speaking they shall be rendering an account concerning it in the day of judging" (Matt. 12:36).

    "For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God ... Consequently then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God" (Rom. 14:11-12).

    Read the dozens of scriptures where we are likened not only to "children," but to "little children." God is dealing with mankind as minors. He holds them accountable, but nowhere does God hold man responsible. Show me one Scripture.

    The church can only see the relative in God's word. They fail to see that God is behind everything in the "absolute."

    " ... according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11--Concordant Literal New Testament).

    The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma."

    Hope this helps you,

    God be with you,

    Ray


Oh while you are at trying to find your evidence to proove I contradict Ray...be sure to study this first. It just may save you from making a public fool of yourself.  What a good girl I am aren't I? :D I am trying to help you and you are trying to smack me! And you are the one who says you do not agree 100% with Ray!!!!SCRAM Dean...your comment and threats are a hinderance to me and a stumbling block.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html

Arcturus

YellowStone:
Hi Arcturus,

Just a little note, I never once said that God was accountable, responsible yes, but accountable no.

So as God is responsible for everything, including his dragging those He calls to him, everything and I mean EVERYTHING  :D that confronts us in the life is for our instruction. I trust God completely and I thank Him always for all that he has given me and the patience He has shown. Oh, I will be accountable for much I am sure, but I know that my thoughts CANNOT in anyway, change anything that God has planned. :)

Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 

I am responsible for nothing, all is of Him. Prasie be to God always.

Dean, Thank you for your post. You quoted the following words of Ray and they align perfectly with my post. :)

By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet.  But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?

I will add, if all this is NOT true, why then would God want us to trust Him? :)

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.  

It is my opinion that this is where true knowledge begins!

Love in Christ,
Darren

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