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The lovey dovey Jesus
Dean Peterman:
Dear Arcturus,
I ask your forgiveness for offending you. It was not my intention. Believe it or not it is not my desire to cause any harm to you. I was concerned with what you were saying on this subject because I did not want you to inadvertently sound like you were contradicting Ray. I like you Arcturus. You seem like a wonderful person. So I regret that I worded my post so badly. You said some things in your post that I thought you might later regret and I did not want you to continue until you were sure that you were not contradicting Ray. Prior to typing the word Arcturus none of my post was directed toward you. I was speaking in general. As I stated before I have not yet seen the truth of this teaching on free will. However, I know that you have and I was concerned about the implications of what you were saying. Specifically, you said,
“Are you SURE about that? MOTIVES are from GOD? What about the motive to blow up the twin towers…is THAT from God? What about the motive to defraud and swindle ones neighbour. Is that FROM GOD? I think that thinking is blasphemy!”
Yet, this is exactly what Ray does teach. Therefore, I wanted to stop you before you went any further. I deeply regret offending you and can only hope you will forgive me for my misguided attempt to caution you about your words.
Sincerely,
Dean
ciy:
Dean
It is great that you are seeing the truth even though you say that you do not yet believe the sovereignty of God.
You are right. Ray teaches and the bible teaches that all is of God. Just like Ray says, God does not allow evil to be done. God causes it to be done for the eternal good.
If there is evil done in the city did not God do it. And as in another thread, it is all a hard teaching.
CIY
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Dean,
You present this statement I made.
“Are you SURE about that? MOTIVES are from GOD? What about the motive to blow up the twin towers…is THAT from God? What about the motive to defraud and swindle ones neighbour. Is that FROM GOD? I think that thinking is blasphemy!”
Motive - The REASON for a certain course of action, whether conscious or unconscious. Ref/English Collins Dictionary
Reason - A CAUSE or MOTIVE. Ref/English Collins Dictionary
GRACE - Divine influence upon our hearts. (Nashville conference...Ray Smith)
As Ray notes : Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this.
(*But God does not DIRECTLY DO THIS) He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. (*HE DOES NOT DIRECTLY CAUSE THOSE CHOICES) Things like the Devil do such things. (*THINGS LIKE THE DEVIL DO SUCH THINGS) And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end. (*Brackets are my notation)
My point related to the Twin Towers that being an evil event for which God caused the circumstances and man provided with Satan, the motive.
My point is that Gods Grace is an influence for GOOD and evil is an influence for the death or harm against what is good, true, hones, just, pure, lovely and virtuous and noble.
My question to Darren was…”what about the motive to blow up the Twin Towers." Notice I did not ask about the motive to feed the poor and help the down trodden. Notice the motive I questioned.
Not all motives are Godly or of God. Some are clearly with the help of the Devil working against man and his life. Man volunteers, likes and engages in evil until he repents. After repentance then man can begin the process to outgrow and comes to see that his heart is evil unless ruled by Christ through HIS gift of GRACE.
My question to Darren challenged a deeper discussion on the issue of Choice, Motive, Accountability and Responsibility. To what DEPTH is this teaching integrated?
We have choices, billions of them and can only ever make one. To integrate, grasp, apprehend and come to fully express this wisdom with comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God…For ME is the beginning of Wisdom. It is not a slight of ease for the carnal mind to apprehend the Wisdom of God, because this truth is spiritual and the carnal can not accept the spirit and is hostile to it.
The Forum is a great place to test our comprehension. Resistance to insight only shows lack of understanding and a need to go deeper and train longer, putting down the old man to take up the new creation in Christ. There is much to unlearn. More than 2000 years of Babylonian teaching. It is a huge field!
Thank you Rodger for your contribution to this discussion. Your observations are so necessary to all of us who have been crippled into belief systems that have been indoctrinated into our hearts. We all have to take up our beds and walk. That instruction is from Christ to those who hear and know the call to get up and walk out of Babylon. It is simple but not easy.
Dean, in the comfort and solstice that Rodger exhorts of us let me add, I appreciate your apology and accept your explanation. Thank you. I hope my clarification is likewise acceptable to you. Please let me know.
Being called to explain/clarify or expand upon our statements is something we should all be prepared to do. And when tested we should all be able to rise to the challenge to stand...stand...stand...
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Dean Peterman:
Dear Arcturus,
Thank you for clarifying your post. When I read your earlier post I became concerned because in my mind (someone who doesn't understand this teaching on free will yet) it sounded like you were contradicting Ray. Of course, that was not your intention. In fact, to be totally honest, my carnal mind thought, wow, I guess Ray is wrong about free will, Arcturus just blew this whole no free will thing away. Then I stopped myself and thought, no, I don't think that is what Arcturus is saying. So I went and found that e-mail so I could show it to you. Unfortunately, I presented myself very badly and made it seem like I was out to expose you. It was never my intention to come off like that. So thank you for accepting my apology. This is definitely a deep subject.
Sincerely,
Dean
sansmile:
This has been quite confusing, as you all really are saying the same thing. I understand comletely that we have no free will, and i thank God for that revealing. Acting on lust, of the flesh, of the eye or on pride of life ..... is SIN
(1Jo 2:16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
So, we will be accountable for acting on those lusts, giving in to the flesh instead of the spirit. That is WHY we are held accountable. Yes, God is responsible for putting those choices in front of us and for ALLOWING satan to tempt us..but we, not being robots and having logical thought and KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, do choose one or other of the choices He puts in front of us. Why are we held accountable?? I see it as that He is creatING sons and daughters.......His family, through chastening (judgement begins at the house of God) knowledge of sin, knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. ONLY with Him in us can we OVERCOME and by OVERCOMING (sin) WILL we become worthy to rule with Him. He tests and also guides us to the right choice through LOVE, through chastening, through trials and the more we come to see that, the more we see that we CANNOT overcome without Him and that HIS WILL BE DONE. By recognising that we need Him to help us overcome and totaly submit to His will........ creates Sons of God. But only if we run the race obediently and faithfully.
God Bless
Sandie
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