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Author Topic: A question derived from one of ray's papers.  (Read 12397 times)

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ez2u

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2007, 03:46:20 AM »

 You know I just wonder how many of you here really know  and I mean know what this means to be constantly buffeted by satan.  If Richard wurmbrandt was here yes he would know he was torture for Christ under the streets Russia for 17 years.  What is all this about with you guys.  I know I sound rude but please besides my rudeness does anyone here really had this experience  or is it just talking sounds.  If you haven't walk through something how do you know what it really is?  I knowyoustudythe scriptures to come to knowledge and some people talk like they have some knowledge.  To know is a good word to look up in the Greek and hebrew.  Head knowledge what does that profit a man with out walking through the firer of God.  Peggy
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iris

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2007, 06:01:52 AM »

Thanks Kat for the emails, Ray explains it really well.


Iris
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seminole

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2007, 11:41:15 AM »

Peggy, I feel what you are saying. I have had what I call "demons" in my own life. The fire I walked through was painful and if I am honest it is still painful at times. My body has scars and disfigurements because of severe child abuse. The beatings came while my youngest sister was molested before my eyes. I tried to go to her aid and that is when the beating would start. The man who did this was supposed to love our mother but was instead trying to kill off every part of her life before him and that included us. There is music I can't listen to because a song can bring the violence back to my mind. I was changed throughout that and other things. I lived through a very real fire that he caused that left me scarred also. I am deaf in one ear from him. If I am not looking at someone to see their lips moving i can't always tell what they are saying.For me, alcohol and drugs became my escape from the pain of our lives. Time went on and the day came when I felt that pulling on my heart that led me to the Holy Spirit which led me to lay down my drugs and alcohol. That same gift of God has led me to help others who are in simialar situations as me and my sisters were. I am about as far from perfect as one can be but God loves and accepts me anyway. My heart is His and my life is His. He made me, knows what I survived, knows my desire to help others and knows when I mess up and loves me anyway. Demons, yes but the love of God is so much greater. Most sincerely from the heart,
Seminole
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joyful1

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2007, 12:26:13 PM »

:'( Siminole-- my heart ached for you when I read your reply....I never experienced what you went through-- I understand that only by God's grace, little children endure such suffering-- and it is a mystery how He works these things for the good, although I trust Him and believe that He does....but going along with this thread, I did experience "being frozen" and talked to, as a child, by what I believe must have been a demonic spirit...almost nightly...my heart pounded and I felt shear dread, and was unable to stop it from happening for many years, I thank God that it made me search him out at an early age and I thank God that He has seen fit to remove it from my life and replace my fretful nights with good, peaceful sleep for many years now.... its really the only explanation that I have for such things...
peace and love to you!
Joyce :)
oh yes...and acturus:  again great point!

"If confronted for example how will you ever explain Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying  What is your name?  And he said, Legion: because MANY DEVILS WERE ENTERED INTO HIM. "
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seminole

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2007, 02:23:16 PM »

Yes Joyce, such a hard thing to understand. maybe we will never understand why those things happen each day but praises to God that He uses those things to change our lives and make us better people.
Seminole
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DuluthGA

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2007, 07:28:03 PM »

Hello...I hope I can straighten out my part in this briefly:  Yep Arcturus, I do stand corrected on what Paulís splinter really was indeed as you pointed out, an evil spirit creature.  I donít know how this important piece of information escaped me when I read Ray's paper on this some time ago.  I think I simply forgot.  I focused only on Paulís extremely lousey and hard life incurred by the evil doings of others as blows, lashes and floggings from them, stonings, tortures, being jailed and imprisoned, etc., well as his bad eyesight, hard toil and laboring, hunger, thirst, cold and nakedness, troubles at sea, even deaths, and being crucified upside down.

As stated in my earlier post in this thread, Reply # 28, one of several: ďALL evil is given from God.  It is real to the extent that God gives it to be real, to include witchcraft, etc., etc.  I didn't list at least 17 verses from the Word of God in my previous post regarding God and His evil if it wasn't REAL/ACTUAL/DOES EXIST per Him."  So I think Iím on board with this, just erred in not realizing Paul had an evil entity within him.

Thanks a bunch Kat for quoting that Ray email, a good one.

No Arcturus, this is the paragraph, the second paragraph of yours I didnít get at first:

ďThis might mean that the messenger of Satan is sent to those who experience transcendence of Christ and physical trials are sent only to HUMILIATE and HUMBLE those who have not yet experienced TRANSCENDENCE?Ē

And I get it now.  It is a rhetorical question, so I will leave it at that.

Thank you Darren, I appreciate ALL your comments.

It's always great to learn, even in a roundabout way!  ;) ;D

Joy, Janice



« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 07:54:24 PM by DuluthGA »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2007, 08:13:56 PM »


Hi Janice,

One thing I would like to point out that you said.

Quote
So I think Iím on board with this, just erred in not realizing Paul had an evil entity within him.

To Say Paul had a demon within is saying he was demon possessed.  I do not believe he was demon possessed.  I think from what Ray says, this would come upon Paul suddenly and attack him. 

http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html ----------------------

We have to understand that Paul could not live normally, by just expecting a setback or trial from time to time as circumstances would allow. No. Paul traveled in foreign lands for years, fully conscious of the fact that this appointed messenger of Satan was always there, like a sniper in the dark, ready to suddenly pounce on Paul with blows of every description and severity of pain and agony. And how often did these things happen to Paul? Almost too often, and too much--INORDINATELY!
-------------------------------------------------------

This whole thing is a bit difficult to understand, but I hope you see what I'm talking about  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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GODSown1

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2007, 09:27:35 PM »

Bang! upside da Head, :)
                           Also my Heart jumped, dropped, fell even stopped 4 U Seminole, But! Yes az I hav cum 2 da knowledge,  it is Hard 4 us 2 understand fingz d@ happen in our lives but! we must cum 2 accept it, We can Y dis? & Y d@? all day, night, week etc..  long, but we will neva get an answer We r satisfied with, exsept  knowing wholeheartedly! GOD is in Control, alwayz has & alwayz wil be. I hav seen fingz like d@ of U Seminole happen all around me 2 my niece wen she was 4yrz old to da age of 11, it happened 2 my cuzzin whom I was bort up wit whom was once a man but now has had a sex change but 2 me da worse was 2 my very own children, Wen I cort da mother of my 4 oldest children in bed with another dude well we split up of coz, Well I took 2 children & she took 2 children, she took my oldest son then da age of 7 & da youngest of da 4 my dortas whom was 3. But! my son only dis year sumtime cum out & told me him & his younger sister were both molestered by one of their mothers boi friends bout 15 yrz ago, it was quite strange how him telln me all dis came out 2, my son was drinking with my younger dorta & her boi friend & my younga brother & my wife one night , wen my son who now is 23yrz old started talkn about a uncle of mine & he was sayn how orsum he is & kind bla bla bla... Wen out of no wher I sed Woteva son hez a molesterer! ( the molesterer of my cousin), wow! did all hell break loose, my son started yelln & sayn Y did u hav 2 say d@ dad? den ran out & ran home, everyone was telln me 2 chase him, den d@ had me finkn man! Y did I hav 2 say d@?. I jus said I will go c him in the morning & sort fingz out. Well the next morning my wife & I went ova 2 c him b4 we were 2 head back 2 da City wher we lived, az soon as I walked in my son says 2 me Dad I need 2 talk 2 U, & Bang!!!! it all cum out wot had happened 2 him & his sister bowt 15yrz ago, I new da dude 2 he was an old friend of mine but strangely enuff dis dude was killed in quite strange circumstances, he was stabbed in the back with a screw driver by the lesbian partner he was sleepn with, I jus said 2 my son after giving him & his sister big loveies!, tears n all I said son one mus 4give & da healing is made much easier & coz he had bort it out takes a big load off him as I remember everytime I was with them in years b4 having a few drinks he alwayZ! I mean AlwayZ! use 2 cry around me & no one understood Y, az he was known az da man! so 2 speak, but wen I was around he jus cried, now it all makes sense. Well im on dis subject I wanna jus tell of my nieces ordeal she is my second oldest sisters dorta (but tragically was killed in a domestic related beating) & she left 2 dortas Brooke & Krystal, well wher 2 begin, we hav dis photo of dez 2 wen dey were Brooke 4 & Krystal 2 & now we no bcoz of wot we no now one can easily C Y der r different facial exspressions on each of der faces, Well wen Brooke was 11yrz old da grandfather dropped Brooke off 2 us 4 da day, den in da afternoon he returned 2 pick her up, But! den Brookes whole attitude jus changed & she refused 2 go & she jus opened up 2 my wife & told her everything & it started @ da age of 4yrs old her so called granfather would get her out of bed around 2ish in da mornings & take her in2 da park & do wot he did 2 her dis happened daily & still 2 da day b4 he dropped her off 2 uS. Well wen it went 2 court my niece didnt wana go thru it n e longa & gav up so da granfather was set free with a warning, We will b watchn U. We were all so guttered!, how can one do dis & get away wit it, well 2 make fingz n e worse da granfather Won! 500 thousand in lotto!, we were all just freaked out Y? how? is der a GOD? bla bla bla, But! Praise GOD az d@ ended up bein his down fall, I believe he thort he could buy dis sort of sick!! thing he enjoyed doin 2 little gurls even tho it was a cple of years after it had all been bort out in da open, he tried it on another gurl but she escaped & ran down the road naked & he was arested & sent 2 jail but d@ wasnt da end of it, az he was found in his cell Hanging!. Is der a GOD!?? dam! right derz a GOD!. I dont no Y I shared dis all, my niece is now 26yrz old now & is doin really well & so r my 2 children. One fing Ive noticed is my niece so loves her children my son has 3 children he Loves so much & my younga dorta is currently pregant & is due in October at first she didnt want 2 keep it but after a talk or 2 to her, she just so cant wait 4 her baby 2 b born, THANK YOU FATHER for YOU are so GOOD, BlesSnz! 2 U Seminole, I feel the work GOD has done in U is great! & will get greater, Praise HIS name.
                              much muchLOVE!! Pera

Ps. I am sorry Peggy 4 gettn off da subject sumwot, I truly feel 4 U sister & I am hearing U, a quick xeperience I had was an Eye d@ came 2 me wen I was only half asleep it was a very heavy evil feeln I was feeln, But! I jus Prayed & Prayed & Prayed & it disappeared but wen I was woken by a knock on the door I ran inside where my dorta who is 13yrs old was seeing da same thing an Eye!, I just Prayed ova her till she fell asleep. wen she could talk about it, it was da exact Eye I had seen, but 2 me dis stuff doesnt faze me az I Know! FEAR nothing but the LORD dis just happened dis year sumtime but hasnt happened again, PRAISE the LORD alwayZ!!! Peace 2 U sister Peggy Oxx.
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seminole

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2007, 09:39:05 PM »

Man Pera! You have been through the wringer! I tip my hat to you in how you have the joyous personality that comes through your writing. funny how God uses these bad things to bring us together in knowing we are not alone! Your kids are gonna be great parents because they will be more knowing that these things can happen. I got a little girl and I don't let her be around family that I know is abusers. I will protect her from anything like that I can the best I can.
Seminole
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2007, 11:31:43 PM »

I saw that Harry Potter movie today and I still don't know how to be a sorceror.  The church is full of hypocrites.  They condemn movies and commit real sins with their own idol worship and blasphemy.  Anyway, I've had conversations with people who have experienced visions of dead people.  I think these visions are real but they are still, visions.  I think they are supernatural but they definitely ain't dead people.  It's important that people be careful in what they believe in.  As far as black magic.  It's all deception of Satan
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DuluthGA

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2007, 01:35:27 AM »

HO!  Well Kat, what can I say?  No wonder I didn't get it right the first time... I didn't get it right the second time either!  LOL.

Ok, I think I've got it now thanks to you.  The creature must have been able to manifest physically in order to beat Paul up.  [I was thinking it was a spirit and was causing him painful blows from the inside.] 

Thanks kindly for bearing with me!

Janice
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2007, 10:51:49 AM »


Hi Janice,

Hey, I don't understand this whole demon thing to good either, I have never had any personal demon experiences.  I'm just learning along with you  :)

So how did Paul receive blows from this spirit 'creature,'  I just don't know.
But I'm quite sure it was not 'inside' or possessed Paul.

Can a spirit being manifest itself physically?  I didn't think so.  It could possess animals as when Christ sent the demons out of the man into the swine (Matt 8:31).  So did animals attack Paul?
I'm thinking how Job was beat down by Satan, maybe it was something like that.

Job 2:7  And Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah and struck Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the top of his head.

Maybe as with Job, Satan brought about all the calamities that came upon him, so with Paul, all the calamities that came upon him were from this demon creature.  Interesting stuff, but hard to comprehend, for me anyway.


mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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DuluthGA

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2007, 03:47:31 PM »

Hi Kat,

I'm just now getting back around to this; I'm so glad this came up.  I think I'm gonna have to stick with the concept that Paul's splinter was an evil/nonbenevolent spirit messenger that was manifested physically [an animal or human form or some odd-looking creature, I don't know], not mind you, habiting an existing human life as in them being possessed, but just simply manifested physically so as to render the inordinant blows to Paul.  It defies the laws of physics otherwise that a spirt form could beat up a physical form.  Granted, it seems that this is the only instance of this occurring in Scripture that I know of, that is, of a nonbenevolent messenger given a physical form.  [Other than the demons that were cast by Jesus into pigs, as you had mentioned.]

I think another clue comes from Ray's statement that "Only a creature of intelligence and mobility can possibly "withdraw" from someone." Mobility being the key word here indicating physicality.

There are several examples of benevolent messengers manifesting in physical human form in the O.T.  The three guests that appeared to Abraham and Sarah and did eat, those who appeared to Lot predicting the ruin of Sodom, he who spoke to Hagar in the desert commanding her to return to the dwelling of Abraham, he who wrestled with Jacob on his return from Mesopotamia, the one who presented himself armed to Joshua on the plain of Jericho who declared he was the head of the army of the Lord, and more.  Even Jesus' different physical manifestations gives the idea that God has ultimate control over these kinds of arrangements of matter.

With God all things are possible, of course.  So until I hear evidence to the contrary, I think I now know for sure what Paul's splinter in the flesh was.  Poor Paul!!

Thank you for your kind and diligent assistance in helping me put this together!!  :)

... Just love stretchin' the ol' bean!  :D

Joy, Janice
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2007, 03:57:03 PM »


I believe Paul was tormented by a poltergeist: that is a spirit believed to manifest its presence by rappings and other noises and also by acts of mischief, such as throwing furniture about. Ref Collins English Dictionary
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DuluthGA

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #74 on: July 26, 2007, 05:29:47 PM »

Ahhh... with God all things are possible...  ;)

Janice
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2007, 06:20:04 PM »

You know I just wonder how many of you here really know  and I mean know what this means to be constantly buffeted by satan.  If Richard wurmbrandt was here yes he would know he was torture for Christ under the streets Russia for 17 years.  What is all this about with you guys.  I know I sound rude but please besides my rudeness does anyone here really had this experience  or is it just talking sounds.  If you haven't walk through something how do you know what it really is?  I knowyoustudythe scriptures to come to knowledge and some people talk like they have some knowledge.  To know is a good word to look up in the Greek and hebrew.  Head knowledge what does that profit a man with out walking through the firer of God.  Peggy

I think about people like Wurmbrandt and sooooooo many others.  My life is a piece of cake compared to them.  If the very ELECT are a small group of people from all of history, then wouldn't it likely be mostly martyrs for Jesus?  Why should I even think I would be in the 1st resur.

Many threads here are filled w/ pain and suffering.  But many, not all, are sometimes self induced-wrong choices, drugs, etc....
That is not suffering or persecution for Christs' sake.


I had always assumed Pauls splinter was in the natural from his life (as Janice had said).  I was a big believer in demons and such till I came to BT.  I sorta don't even think about it now.  It seems out of place w/ these teachings. (I lumped it in w/ all the other pentecostal/charismatic/faith/prosperity errors).

This has been an awesome thread by the way.  Kudos to all. Page 6 and still going-not locked!
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seminole

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2007, 06:52:57 PM »

That' s so coolthat the thread is going on. it helps us know we aren't alone when people share what is in their lives. Nole
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ez2u

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2007, 03:56:26 AM »

seminole  Iam sorry I caused you or anyone else undue pain by what I said.  My mind has been strange lately too many changes so quickly.Who Christ selects to be the elect I do not care I am just trying not to fall out of the salt shaker while it gets tipped over .  Praise God thank you Lord Jesus for your sacrifes and God for your love.Peace and Joy in the Lord Jesus Christ Seminole.
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Dean Peterman

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #78 on: July 28, 2007, 03:41:57 PM »

This is an interesting subject.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #79 on: July 28, 2007, 05:11:18 PM »


Hello Dean

I think what makes this subject interesting for you, please correct me if I am wrong, is that you "have spent the last 20 years studying the Bible and Systematic Theology" that provides a rich backdrop for comparison.

When I was in Babylon I saw that Babylonian teachings bring the focus and fear into Satan's territory. The teachings given to me expressed such credibility and power to Satan and so much so that through the thick blanket of dark deception, the lies became large enough to deviate away from the dazzling good news of Jesus Christ, His Glorious Sovereignty, His Will and His Plan. It sure was an experience!

I noticed that by being induced with the darkness of Babylon. that the followers are soon taught to fear their own shadows so to speak or to be suspicious of dead objects and to treat with reverence any taught fear of which there are plenty available to Harlot Babylon to keep her subjects paralysed. Rejection of such tools of deception bring suspicions, accusations and threats that if fear policy of Babylon is not kept in tact then expulsion will follow! That is just one management principle of Babylon! There are many!

I saw others become so paralysed by such deceptions and so convinced they were the truth. Being blessed to receive the truth I now accept that Jesus visits Mystery Babylon to drag out a few of us! I know by contrast that Babylon does not quicken the spirit with truth, but paralyses her victims with the lull of her wine of wrath,  lies, deception and comfortably couched heresies and blasphemies into which many sink very low. Low enough to join the ranks of demons with whom they fellowship on their stages of wonders and miracles in the precious name of our Lord Jesus Christ! "And these signs will follow you!" they declare as evidence of their piety and fellowship with familiar spirits.

I hope and trust that you are continuing to breathe in the fresh, cleansing, liberating Life of HIS Spirit via the teachings freely given and the example abundantly expressed by Ray Smith here at BT.

Peace to you

Arcturus. :)
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