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Author Topic: A question derived from one of ray's papers.  (Read 14447 times)

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gudazdead

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A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« on: July 18, 2007, 02:57:16 PM »

Ray mentions in one of the papers that I read that you should strictly stay away from witches and sorcery.  Well, I get the idea sort've, because it is bad, but why should you stay away from these things specifically?  What effect will it have on a person, what kind've trouble could you get into, how would it interfere with what ray writes and speaks about?

Thank you.
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gudazdead

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2007, 02:58:47 PM »

You know, questions like that, things like that.
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okjohnson

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2007, 03:16:42 PM »


Because these Witches and Sorcers entertain spirits other than the Holy Spirit.
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Sue Creamer

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2007, 03:28:07 PM »

I say, if scriptures say to stay away that is good enough reason for me.   :) 
Besides, I look at it like this, if it were a poisonous snake and I knew it could strike and bite me, I am not willing to take that chance that it will...why tempt the very nature of the animal.

Sue Ann
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YellowStone

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2007, 04:46:12 PM »

Here's a good one for anyone who wants to jump in. :)

1Pe 3:19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

How come some spirits are in prison and others are free to roam and cause mayhem at will?

I have often thought about this :)

Love in Christ,
Darren
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sansmile

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2007, 06:28:47 PM »

Hi,

Are not spirits in prison ........   unbelievers, those in bondage to sin.  Also God ALLOWS satan and his demons  to wander.

Always search for His truths.

Sandie
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Walk in the Spirit

Kat

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2007, 07:04:06 PM »


Hi gudazdead,

I think you have to understand the source for what witches and sorcery, and I believe that is magic.

Main Entry: mag·ic
Magian, magical, from magos magus, sorcerer, of Iranian origin; akin to Old Persian magus sorcerer
1 a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b : magic rites or incantations
2 a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b : something that seems to cast a spell : ENCHANTMENT
3 : the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand
(Merrian Webster)

As I see this, it all means to seek to have power outside of God.  These I believe is a religion in and unto itself.

It formed an essential element in many ancient religions, especially among the Persians, Chaldeans and Egyptians. (Smith Bible dictionary)

I think anybody who is seeking to serve and obey God would want to stay far away from this.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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DuluthGA

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2007, 07:21:33 PM »

Lev 19: 31    Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 20: 6, 27   And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people..... A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Deut 18: 10-12   There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
[12] For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Rev 21: 8   But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Sam 15: 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

2Chr 33: 6   And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Gal 5: 20   Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


That's just a FEW OF 'EM :o by searching the words wizard, witch, sorcerer/y, enchanter, diviner, etc.

Take care, Janice  :)






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Sorin

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2007, 12:28:42 AM »

So let me get this straight. You guys do believe in Sorcery, and Witchery, it's just that it is obviously forbidden in the Scripture. But you don't deny it. Am I correct in that assumption?

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gmik

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2007, 02:07:08 AM »

Wow.  Sorin, good question.

I guess I never believed in any of that stuff.

I alwys thought that if demons, ghosts, magic, and all that were real they would do more damage or take over.  Even at Gettysburg I didn't believe in the ghosts there- they really believe the soldiers still walk around.  To what purpose???

What about Hollywoods pretend sorcery-like Harry Potter?
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Sorin

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2007, 02:17:59 AM »

Wow.  Sorin, good question.

I guess I never believed in any of that stuff.

I alwys thought that if demons, ghosts, magic, and all that were real they would do more damage or take over.  Even at Gettysburg I didn't believe in the ghosts there- they really believe the soldiers still walk around.  To what purpose???

Yeah, if ghosts still walk around; then that would obviously prove Scripture to be wrong (the dead know not anything, no consciousness, nor perception, nor knowledge, nor device...etc..).

Quote from: gmik
What about Hollywoods pretend sorcery-like Harry Potter?

Well, many Christians seem to have a problem with that, but I just laugh at their stupidity. And I don't even like Harry Potter. But the Christian protests I have seen were just down right idiotic, and laughable.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 02:20:57 AM by Sorin »
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DuluthGA

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2007, 02:44:25 AM »

Hi Sorin, yes, I think that's basically right.  In many verses from God's word it is apparent that some people have been given to these sorts of actions.  However, in other, different verses of Scripture, such as God creates evil, etc., [see next paragraph for verses on this] which are good to know, we as readers of the Scriptures are able to put the idea together that these actions of people such as witchcraft, etc., as much as God has indicated He abhors them, are part of His overall Plan, and are ultimately of benefit to us His children. 

Related verses about God and His creation of evil:  Isa 45: 6-7, Lam 3: 38, Eccl 1: 13, 2Sam 12: 11, Jer 4: 6, 26: 3, Josh, 23: 5, Job 1: 8-12, 2: 10, Amos 3: 6, 1Kings 22: 21-23, 2Chr 18: 20-22, Rom 9: 21-23, Judg 9: 23, Psa 105: 24-25, Amos 3: 3-6.

I have a very thin children's book with beautiful drawings that helps depict this general concept of God's evil entitled The Little Soul and the Sun.  And although it has nothing whatsoever to do with God's word directly, it does so in principle, and I have found it a great resource, especially in sharing with others who couldn't give a flip about Scriptures at all... but they like this pretty picture book and grasp the concept.  It goes like this...

The scene starts out in heaven with God (the BIG light) and all the souls He's created around Him (the little lights), and everything is nice and VERY BRIGHT.  One soul/light steps forward and says something like "I know that I am light, but I want to feel what it feels like to be light.  God says sure, but there's only one thing... there is nothing else BUT light... you are like a candle in the sun... and since you can't see yourself as light in the light, I'll surround you with darkness!  The little soul got excited and exclaimed it wanted to become the light that experiences FORGIVENESS.

So another little soul/light stepped forward and volunteered to cloak himself and become dark so the little light could SEE and FEEL HIMSELF AS LIGHT, and the cloaked one did something BAD to the little light, so he could experience FORGIVENESS after the bad act.  And the first little soul was so happy for soul who became dark out love for his friend, but the darkened one simply asked not to be forgotten as to Who and What He Really Was (underneath!).  They were both SO HAPPY going into this pre-arranged arrangement.  You get the idea.

So, that's my take on it.  Enjoy!  Janice

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Kat

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2007, 03:03:03 AM »

Well I do believe there is something to it, I don't really understand it though.  I've never been interested in any of it, not even magic shows.  
We can see it mentioned in the scripture to much, to think there is nothing to it.  I'm not talking about ghosts, but the power through the use of witchcraft and sorcery/magic and it's evil.

Exo 7:11  Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers; and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same by their secret arts.

2Ch 33:6  Also he caused his sons to pass through the fire in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom; he practiced soothsaying, used witchcraft and sorcery, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger.


And we have the story of Simon the sorcerer.  All the people seemed to think he had great power, but the truth of him was revealed when he tried to buy the Holy Spirit.

Act 8:9  But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great,
v. 10  to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God."
v. 11  And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.
v. 18  And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
v. 19  saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
v. 20  But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
v. 21  You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.
v. 22  Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
v. 23  For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."

Act 19:18  Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.
v. 19  And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all.

Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
v. 20  idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
v. 21  envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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DuluthGA

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2007, 03:44:57 AM »

I AIN'T SCARED O' NO GHOSTS!   ;) ;) ;)

(Ghostbusters music in the background)



:> Janice
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2007, 07:29:36 AM »




Eph 5:11 Take no part in and have no fellowship with the fruitless deeds and enterprises of darkness, but INSTEAD let your lives be so in contrast as to EXPOSE and REPROVE and CONVICT them. 12. For it is a shame even to speak of or mention the things that such people practice in secret.

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carol70

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2007, 09:00:02 AM »

Well I do believe there is something to it, I don't really understand it though.  I've never been interested in any of it, not even magic shows. 
We can see it mentioned in the scripture to much, to think there is nothing to it.  I'm not talking about ghosts, but the power through the use of witchcraft and sorcery/magic and it's evil.

Exo 7:11  Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers; and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same by their secret arts.

2Ch 33:6  Also he caused his sons to pass through the fire in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom; he practiced soothsaying, used witchcraft and sorcery, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger.


And we have the story of Simon the sorcerer.  All the people seemed to think he had great power, but the truth of him was revealed when he tried to buy the Holy Spirit.

Act 8:9  But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great,
v. 10  to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God."
v. 11  And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.
v. 18  And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
v. 19  saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
v. 20  But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
v. 21  You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.
v. 22  Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
v. 23  For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."

Act 19:18  Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.
v. 19  And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all.

Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
v. 20  idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
v. 21  envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



While there were many that practiced sorcery, is there any thing in Scripture that leads us to believe it was real?  It seems to me that they were nothing more than the David Copperfields and David Blaines of the day, trying to deceive the masses with tricks and lies.  That's what makes it evil, don't you think?
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2007, 09:10:32 AM »


I know Kat will want to respond to your question but here are my thoughts to add.

Ex 4:1 And Moses answered, But behold, they will not believe me or listen to and obey my voice; for they will say, The Lord has not appeared to you. 2. And the Lord said to him, What is that in your hand? and he said, A rod.3. and He said, Cast it on the ground.And he did so and it became a serpent, the symbol of royal and divine power worn on the crown of the Pharaohs; and Moses fled from before it.

Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do ALL these things.


For me that makes it real.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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carol70

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2007, 09:36:23 AM »

We are in agreement that God creates all things, including evil :)

However, my question is more along the lines of, did God create witchcraft and sorcery, as in, is it real?  Does it really exist or is it all fake?  I guess I have the same question as Sorin.   

So let me get this straight. You guys do believe in Sorcery, and Witchery, it's just that it is obviously forbidden in the Scripture. But you don't deny it. Am I correct in that assumption?

???
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2007, 09:43:36 AM »


I guess your answer lies in whether you believe that the rod Moses threw down and turned into a serpent was real or not. Did the Scripture lie and say the rod was a figment of Moses imagination or did it turn into a REAL SNAKE.

For me it turned into a real snake not a fake one...snakes bite and they kill for real. The wages of sin is death and that too is for real.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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carol70

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Re: A question derived from one of ray's papers.
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2007, 12:12:01 PM »

Ah.  I don't consider that to be witchcraft or sorcery, since it was done by the Lord, not by a witch or sorcerer.

Exo 4:1  And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me nor listen to my voice. For they will say, Jehovah has not appeared to you.
Exo 4:2  And Jehovah said to him, What is this in your hand? And he said, A staff.
Exo 4:3  And He said, Throw it on the ground. And he threw it on the ground. And it became a serpent. And Moses ran from it.
Exo 4:4  And Jehovah said to Moses, Put forth your hand and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand, --
Exo 4:5  so that they may believe that Jehovah, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.

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