> General Discussions
Purpse for the Crucifixion
jackson:
Cindy
I too have had similar thoughts of God at some point useing us as "creative tools" in the same manner that he is useing our Lord Jesus. I don't have any Scripture as back up just idle thoughts. I have even thought it to "dangerous" a subject to think about for to long. If you catch my drift? None the less, how glorious would that be to be used in that way?! WOW!!!
Any way just thought it was interesting that you and I were like minded on that point ;). Hope I didn't derail the tthread with this :o. Sorry for throwing everone out of sorts.
Jackson
pylady:
Hi Jackson,
It's good to know that I'm not the only person with these "crazy" thoughts!
Thanks for letting me know that you're crazy too! ;) ;D ;)
A few scriptures that seem to go with Falgnon's original post and my reply:
from the Message: Eph 1:2-6 "Long before He laid down earth's foundations,
He had us in mind, had settled on us as the focus of His love, to be
made whole and holy by His love. Long, long ago He decided to adopt
us into His family through Jesus Christ. (What pleasure He took in
planning this!) He wanted us to enter into the celebration of His
lavish gift-giving by the hand of His Son."
Hebrews 2:14-18 "Since the children are made of flesh and blood, it's
logical that the Savior took on flesh and blood in order to rescue them
by His death. By embracing death, taking it into Himself, He destroyed
the devil's hold on death and freed all who cower through life, scared to
death of death.
It's obvious, of course, that He didn't go to all this trouble for angels.
It was for people like us, children of Abraham. That's why He had to enter
into every detail of human life. Then, when He came before God as high
priest to get rid of the people's sins, He would have already experienced it
all Himself - all the pain, all the testing - and would be able to help where
help was needed."
With Christian love,
Cindy :)
Falgn0n:
Hi all,
KAT:
I understand now what you meant by that reference to the resurrection..
Quote: "God created Christ " ???
I am really having a difficult time with that.
I did listen to some (not all) of the audio from the nashville conference, and yes, it has answered this question of mine to a large extent. I have not yet come to a part that explores the idea of Christ being "created"
John 1:1 - "In the begining was the word..."
Christ is of course, the Word made flesh...
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
This is Jesus, referring to Himself as The Beginning & End / First & Last
Maybe I will have to listen to the rest of that conference, but it was always my understanding that Jesus is, was and will be -He is Eternal, like the Father, No beginning or end...
Isn't the very foundation of our belief in Him based on the fact that He is, Himself - GOD??
God made manifest in the flesh for us to personally experience?
This is of course, also the answer to my question:
God made Himself flesh and lived among us and died on the cross BY HIS OWN CHOICE, and for the purpose of REVEALING His nature & character to us. Our limited human understanding is certainly utterly incapable of perceiving God in all His fullness and glory, so He set it aside in order that we might have the meagre possibility of being able to relate to Him.
He took our sufferings upon Himself in order to identify with us and to make it possible for us to identify with Him, to see His heart, His nature, and to be shamed by it.
It was no doubt the single greatest act of selflessness ever. The entire Bible-story is a progression of events leading us to Christ, to God revealing Himself to us on a human level, which is just another step along the road to when He reveals Himself to us in all the fullness of His glory!
My curiosity in this issue is satisfied, however, I now have a new dilemma, and that is the idea that Christ was at some point in (or before) time "CREATED". I just can't see it...
PYLADY:
Quote: "That would require Him to die physically, and be raised spiritually, thus being Firstborn from the dead, the first of many brothers"
Quote: "God does not merely tell us how He will give us salvation. He showed us by sending His Son to take every step we must take from birth to death to resurrection in the spirit."
YES! that is the key point in the process!
Quote: "Just another thought. -- If Jesus set the pattern for us, perhaps someday the Father will give us the great priviledge of creating through us."
(I am quite inclined to agree with you there...)
You also say that Jesus was "Created".....
Sorry guys, I need a little help with that one...
Falgn0n.
skydreamers:
Hi FalgnOn,
--- Quote ---You also say that Jesus was "Created".....
Sorry guys, I need a little help with that one...
Falgn0n.
--- End quote ---
This section from Ray's paper "Is God a closed Trinity..." might be helpful to you:
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).
Let me be perfectly clear, logical, and Scriptural on this matter:
One plus one plus one DOES NOT equal one!
One God plus one God plus one God DOES NOT equal one God!
One third of a God plus one third of a God plus one third of a God DOES NOT equal one whole God!
The Holy Spirit of God cannot also be that same God! ANYTHING that is either "from" or "of" something ELSE cannot also "BE" that something else no matter what or who it is!
A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!
Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:
"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).
Will all my readers please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!
Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.
Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.
Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.
In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.
I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
And the next verse says
"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)
I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.
If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!
The above verse really doesn’t need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.
How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."
Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"
Is this too hard for anyone? Is not God’s definition far easier and better than the theologians’ "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?
Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone.
Reading this paper was a real eye opener for me. It just shows once again how many false man-made doctrines there are out there.
Peace,
Diana
Kat:
Hi Falgnon,
I think once you hear the rest of the audio, you will get a much better understanding of where Jesus came from.
I have taken these excerpts that I think will help you for now.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg38212.html#msg38212 ----
There are three theories about how Christ came about.
1) He came about for the first time as a human being, out of a physical mother. That was the first time Christ ever existed.
2) He was created sometime before that and them came into the mother.
3) Then you have, He is eternal, He always existed.
Very few believe He just came into existence as a physical human being, for the first time ever. Though I had one man argue with me for weeks. He said, ‘no, in the beginning was the Word and it was the Father, that the Word was God and not Christ‘. Not too many people believe that, but some do.
Most people follow the Christian tradition and they believe no. 3, that Christ was eternal, He’s part of the trinity and He’s always existed.
But of course the truth is no. 2, Jesus Christ was created.
-"the Origin of God’s creation" (James Moffatt).
-"God’s creative Original" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
-"The Chief of the creation of God" (Young’s Translation).
-"the Origin, and Beginning, and Author of God’s creation" (The Amplified New Testament).
Well the truth of the matter is from those translations, you can’t actually prove that He is not eternal, by that statement. But you say, yea He’s the beginning, He started the creation, He‘s eternal. So to me it’s a proof that He is the beginning. Not the beginning of what God has created on the earth, but He Himself is ‘the beginning’ of God’s creation. It depends how you emphasize. You have the same sentence with two totally different meanings.
It’s like, I tell you this day, today I’m telling you, you shall be in paradise. Or. I tell you, today you shall be in paradise. And there‘s this one. What’s that up in the road ahead. Or. What’s that up in the road, a head.
So we won’t place a lot of emphasis on that one. But one thing that we do know from that one is, before He was human, He was there! So we know whatever His beginning was, He was there, at the beginning.
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This "Almighty" is the "Alpha & Omega." This "Alpha and Omega" is called "First and Last" in Rev. 1:11 and "First and Last" in 1:17. But we still can’t conclusively prove it from that, that He was there. But then we read in verse 18, is the One who became "DEAD." Now the thing is, can God die? If Christ is eternally existing with His Father, eternally, how could He DIE? Can an eternal God die?
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[4] "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God,”
Actually & literally this verse says, "God was the Word" (Concordant).
“…and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by HIM(the Word) and without Him was not anything made that was made.” (John 1:1-3).
V. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us. the only begotten of the Father?"
The Word of God, that is the Word - Logos - Spokesman, ok. Jesus Christ has a name on His side (Revelation 19) and that name is, “the Word of God.” Jesus Christ is the Word - Spokesman - Logos - representative - messenger of God. Because nobody has ever heard God or seen Him. So if God wants to convey something to the human race, He does it through His Word - His Spokesman - His Messenger - His Logos - Jesus Christ. Now in Genesis how do we know that it’s not God the Father speaking, because no one has ever heard His voice or seen His shape for that matter. So when ever you hear a voice, it’s not God, well….not exactly.
[5] How can we be absolutely sure that this is not the Father speaking in Genesis? Answer: "And the Father Himself, which has sent Me, has born witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape" (John 5:37). Did Moses hear God’s voice? Answer: "Did ever people hear the voice of GOD speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live?" (Deut. 4:33). Did Moses see the shape of God? "you shall SEE MY BACK PARTS." (Exodus 33:18-23). This is Jesus.
[6] "For by HIM [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by Him and for Him" (Col. 1:15-19).
By Jesus Christ, that’s right He made everything.
"Let this mind be in you, which was [is] also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant [slave], and WAS made in the likeness of men"(Phil. 2:5-7).
Now here we learn a little more of what this is about. When it says “mind” it is the disposition of God Himself. Where it says “equal with God” it is the same amount or degree and so on.
“Being in the form of God…” is being inherently in the form of God. Inherently, that’s an interesting word, it means possessed at birth or the inborn, right. I thought now that is interesting, that before He became man, He was by birth - inborn. Strong’s uses the word, He existed as a ‘innate‘. Existent as an innate birth, a right by birth. That is what it means, a right by or through birth. Jesus Christ was born (to which of the angels did He ever say, you are My son I have begotten you), as a little boy in a manger? He was His Son, from the beginning. The whole idea of Jesus Christ, was to be a Son, ‘from the beginning.’ Now it says.
Phi 2:6 “…thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took on Himself the form of a servant(slave), and was made in the likeness of man.”
So this was an inborn right of birth, to have these powers. And what did He do? Where it says, He made Himself of no reputation, the KJ margin says, “He empted Himself of all His privileges.” I mean He is so mighty and everything, I mean you’re not going to kill Him. He has got to reduce down, to something really small, compared to what He was. And He voluntarily did that, “He took it on Himself,” you see. And He was made low enough to kill. It says in Hebrews, “A little lower than the angels,” so they could kill Him. And how was that accomplished? He emptied Himself of everything, God had given to Him. I guess God could have taken it away, but He didn’t take it away, Christ gave it up.
Now here is a verse you might not think proves that Christ is the Creator.
[7] “For though there be that are called gods (theos is plural), whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; But to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father, OF Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Everything, “all things” are out ‘of’ God.
The word "of" in this verse is ek ex and it means--origin, from, out of, like exist(toget out of, to exist). Here is the Concordant Translation "there is One God, the Father, OUT OF WHOM ALL IS" If "all things are out of God," then certainly that includes Jesus. Where is Jesus Christ ‘from‘? Is He some ‘thing‘? He is the grandest thing of all. “All things,” are ek ex from the Father. So where did Christ come from? It says “all things” are of or out of (ek ex) God. And there is only one God, the Father, and we in Him. “and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom” that means through or the channel of.
There it is!
Everything, all knowledge, the plan of the universe is out of God. But then it is channeled through Jesus Christ. Why? He’s the Spokesman, and the creator, and the Savior, and the example to humanity. Because God can’t come down and face us, face to face. Christ in His glory, in the OT, you couldn’t face Him either, it would have blown you away. But He emptied Himself. Christ talked about "My Father, your Father; My God, your God." (John 20:17)
So everything there is, is out of God and then it is through or By Jesus Christ, that He channeled everything that there is.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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