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Author Topic: Jesus Nature?  (Read 6347 times)

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sonofone

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Jesus Nature?
« on: September 28, 2007, 03:05:50 PM »

I have a question concerning the nature of Jesus. I was taught that Jesus was fully God and man all at the same time. My understanding of this was Jesus was born after the same manner as Adam,that is is to say without the fallen nature. Someone told me that when I put it like this I am saying that Jesus had an unfair advantage over us. Is it your understanding that Jesus was born with our sin nature activated so to speak? I don't think this is true. What do you think?
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Gregor

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2007, 04:21:42 PM »

Greetings,
For me to fully explain how I understand this (good question, by the way) would take a huge paper full of scriptures. But, to put it as simple as I can, I think Jesus purpose here on earth was much different than ours. He started out perfect (without the sin nature) so as to "become sin" for us and crucify it to the cross ONCE AND FOR ALL. So at the cross Jesus tasted sin (ours), death, and seperation from God, making him fully man, giving up his spirit. Jesus did face every kind of temptation (invitation to sin) just like we do - lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, pride of life, when he was alone in the wilderness being tempted by satan. Unlike us, Jesus relied soley on the word of God saying "It is written..." and he overcame. He had faith and was obedient, even unto death. Since Jesus was completely submitted to the will of his Father, satan had to come and tempt him in person. Satan tempting us in person is something you and I will probably never need to experience because Adam's sin has been imputed to us and we volunteer out of our own desires. On the other hand, Jesus, being sinless, did not deserve the punishment for breaking the law (word of God) but partook of it (death) anyways so as to impute his righteousness to us. Now that we have fellowship with God restored, we can access his spirit to empower us to believe and submit to His will. Ultimately, in our sinful state it is impossible for man to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law and therefore only God could accomplish this, making Jesus fully equal with God - ONE.  Ray touches on this in his paper on the Trinity doctrine. I hope what I said sheds some light?
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dawnnnny

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2007, 05:04:40 PM »

He started out perfect (without the sin nature) so as to "become sin" for us and crucify it to the cross ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Hi Gregor,
I had to comment because of your one sentence "become sin" was just covered in a great audio by Ray that I listened to yesterday.  I'm posting the three links below, although I couldn't get the first part or third part to download  :(   but I listed to part 2 where Ray says Jesus did not become sin, but was the sin offering.  It was really good so I thought I'd let you know about it in case you wanted to listen.

If anyone else can tell me why the other 2 links don't work, I would appreciate it.  When I click on them I just get a bunch of weird code.

Have a great day!
Dawn


Under Ray's audio teachings:

October 06 Christ/Sin Pt. I
http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA

November 06
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3
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Gregor

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2007, 05:30:16 PM »

Thanks for the correction. My understanding is that he bore the sins, not that he was actual sin. Clarification is good.
Heb.9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1Pet.3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

I'll check out the links you sent. Thanks.
G.
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Harryfeat

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2007, 05:45:24 PM »

I have a question concerning the nature of Jesus. I was taught that Jesus was fully God and man all at the same time. My understanding of this was Jesus was born after the same manner as Adam,that is is to say without the fallen nature. Someone told me that when I put it like this I am saying that Jesus had an unfair advantage over us. Is it your understanding that Jesus was born with our sin nature activated so to speak? I don't think this is true. What do you think?

Hello Sonofone,

I agree with Gregor on two counts.  It's a great question and will take a ton of scripture to get through it.  I presume you are talking about pre-fall Adam Vs Jesus.

What is your impression of presin/prefall Adam.  Was he  a perfect, immortal, image of Elohim?  If so then did he not have an advantage over Jesus in that he was not born mortal? If he was perfect, why did he sin?  Did presin/prefall Adam indeed have a  sinful heart as discussed by Paul in Romans 7.  Was Paul referring to  presin/prefall  Adam with Rom 8:20?  When you read 1 Cor 15:32-50 do you think Paul is talking about presin/prefall Adam 1?   Just a few things I have been mulling over of late.

The simple answer to your question is that I didn't get the impression from Paul's discussion in 1Cor15 that he believed that Jesus the Christ had a sin nature like Adam 1.  I don't remember how Ray dealt with this issue since its been a while.  I guess I need to revisit.

I hope that helps.


be blessed
feat

PS. Added the presin desciption after reading MG's great post realized I had fallen back to the baggage of  my old tradition filled terminology.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 07:11:00 PM by Harryfeat »
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Robin

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2007, 05:58:11 PM »

There was no fall of man. Adam and Eve were created just as they were.

Now, with all that said, let’s prove once and for all that Mother Eve and Adam were (1) NOT spiritually perfect in any way shape or form, BEFORE they actually ate of the forbidden fruit, and (2) neither did they sin and then partake of the forbidden fruit through the operation of something called "free will."

"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:

"…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)
  
and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:

"…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)
 
and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:

"…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)

Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.

ALL of Eve’s evil thoughts of pride, vanity, lust, greed, disobedience, and finally thievery proceeded NOT from Eve’s supposed "free will," but rather from out of her HEART. And the only reason these sins could come out of her heart is because THEY WERE ALREADY IN THERE FROM THE BEGINNING. BEFORE Eve actually ate of the forbidden fruit, she committed every category of sin in the world. And need I remind us that we were also, ALL IN ADAM, before he ate of the tree (I Cor. 15:22). Will we deny our own eyes and the Scriptures we have just read?


"For the creature [Gk: ‘creation’] was made [put under, subordinate to, to obey] subject to vanity [Gk: ‘futility’], not willingly, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope."


http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html



John tells us that:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word was MADE FLESH… grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:1, 14 & 17).

God is not "flesh." Jesus had to be "made flesh." And then AS flesh, Jesus had to "grow and wax strong" (Luke 2:40). God does not "grow or wax strong," but Jesus "made flesh" had to grow and wax strong. Jesus also had to "overcome" (John 16:33). God does not need to overcome anything. Jesus had to "suffer" and "learn obedience" (Heb. 5: 8 ). God does not suffer: God does not learn anything, seeing that God is all knowing (Isa. 46:10).

Jesus was "troubled in His soul" (John 12:27). God is never troubled in HIS soul. Jesus got "weary" (John 4 6). God never gets weary (Isa. 40:28). Jesus became "exceeding sorrowful" (Matt. 26:38). God never sorrows. Jesus was famished after fasting for 40 days and nights. He was so "hungry" that he was ready to die (Matt. 4:2). God never gets hungry. God can never die of hunger. Jesus got very "thirsty" (John 19:28). God never gets thirsty. Jesus "wept" (John 11:35). God never weeps. Jesus was acquainted with "sickness" (Isa. 53:3). God never gets sick.

How sad that many Christians believe that nothing bad ever happened to Jesus before His crucifixion. If it were not for God IN Jesus, Jesus would have been as helpless as a newborn baby. In fact, Jesus said with all humility and truth: "I can of Mine Own Self do nothing…" (John 5:30).

Jesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:

"For whom He did foreknow, [that’s US, and eventually all humanity, I Cor. 15:28], He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29).

Jesus was made a physical man so that He could show us the way to the spirit God.

And so it was that this Jesus, in the flesh, who became human, became a man of flesh, was conformed into the spiritual "Image of God," and spoke to us through His "words of spirit." It is Jesus Who "was the word of God" back in Genesis, Who did the speaking when "…God [the Word] said, Let there be light" (Gen. 1:3). It was "the word" in Genesis 1:26 Who said: "Make will We humanity in Our Image…" (Concordant Version).

What kind of words were those words, which The Word spoke back there in the garden? Why they were the words of Jesus, and Jesus plainly tells us that His words "ARE SPIRIT" (John 6:63).

"And creating is God humanity in His [spiritual] Image. In the Image of God He creates it. Male and female He [spiritually] creates them" Gen. 1:27).

Why of course, that is why Paul teaches us that we are, "…to be conformed to the Image of His Son." Jesus now is in the very spiritual image of God, just as He was prior to being emptied into human flesh, in the form of a servant:

"And now, O Father, GLORIFY You Me with Thine Own Self with the glory which I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS" (John 17:5).


http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

Hebrews 4:14-16

 14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 06:07:43 PM by M.G. »
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Kat

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2007, 06:20:47 PM »


Hi sonofone,

I thought I would bring this part of the 2007 Nashville Conference (audio 7B) 'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html -------

But He gave His Son, now here’s the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die?  Why?  Why did the Father sacrifice His Son?  Why did He have to do that?  HE DIDN’T HAVE TO DO THAT!  He didn’t have to do anything, HE’S GOD!  Why did He? 
Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure.  That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US!  He did not have to die.  He said, I will do it to show them.  How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value?  What can I do?  I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life.  I have all that to give, but they will say,  you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have.  What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you?  And God said, I will DIE! 
But God can’t die, He’s eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness.  If you have immortality you can’t die. 
So He made a Son.  He made Him great.  And to show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son.  Ok, Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die. 
Then they will know We love them. 
Then they will know.
------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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ciy

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2007, 06:28:53 PM »

One thing I believe is something to remember is that Jesus was sent to be the first fruit of many.  We are to be just like Jesus.  We are to have the revelation of Jesus Christ in us.  Everything that happened to Jesus will happen to us in kind.  It is a narrow path that leads to salvation and to get there we must drink from the same cup that Jesus drank from.  

We will be tempted by Satan and we must defeat him with the Word and not through our carnal power.  If we overcome him with our self, we will become more carnal and be just like the pharisees.  

We are basically the same except the beast is on the throne of our hearts and not the anointing of the spirit that was on the throne of Jesus' heart (which is a big difference).  Our flesh body is the same as the flesh body of Jesus and the Christ (the anointing) is in us just like in Jesus, but we are still ruled by iniquity and he never was.  Like John the baptist we (our carnal being) must decrease and Christ (the spirit) must increase.  The only way to do this is to fill up with Him and He is the Word, so we stay in the Word until we believe so in what he commands that we actually do what He commands from our heart.  We will count it all joy because what is happening to us is exactly what we desire in our hearts because we want exactly what God wants.  When this happens we have overcome this world (age or era) and we will be ready for the next age.  If we do it through our self then we become more a part of this age instead of overcoming and being purged of self (flesh) by the washing of the Word.

This is the intent of my heart to stay focused on the prize set before me.  That prize is the high calling of Jesus Christ.  I will not worry with the mark I missed yesterday.  I will press on not looking to the right or the left knowing that it is a daily fight and in the end it will be lonely, but the reward will be tremendous to those who perservere to the end.

May sound crazy but that is what I believe.

CIY
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 06:42:52 PM by ciy »
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Harryfeat

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2007, 07:06:01 PM »

Hello M.G.,
 

Thanks for the link.  Tradition has taught us about the "fall of Adam".  I should have charaterized it pre sin rather than pre fall. Just another example that I should choose my words more carefully since, I don't believe there was a "fall" either.  It was more of a slide down the slope of sin.  [I'm going back to edit in pre sin ] Thanks again MG

I am still looking at the image and likeness issue.  I believe after reading Paul, it is a process rather than a beginning condition as stated  by Genesis1. I am currently  researching into the Jewish teachings to determine what the thinking was behind the words in Genesis1.


Thanks also for that reference Kat. There is no certainly question from scripture about the Devine nature of Jesus.  Joh 5:26 For, just as, the Father, hath life, in himself, in like manner, unto the Son also, hath he given, life, to have, in himself;


be blessed
feat

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sonofone

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2007, 07:13:48 PM »

It sounds like the overall consensus is that Jesus did not possess the sin nature we have,I understand also by some comments that we may have to part in our agreement as to wether Adam started off with this sin nature or not. I find that this issue is a matter of what you believe based on your understanding of the scriptures.The feedback means a lot to me. I feel it is important to know what nature Jesus had,not because of advantage,or disadvantage.He was after all God in the flesh.
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indianabob

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2007, 10:41:03 PM »

Sonofone,

I'm not sure how to phrase the following so please interpolate as needed.

Adam was created new and without a history of sin to his account.
Adam and then Eve were perhaps sinless for a time until sin was found in them.

However, Adam was not as yet perfected.  Adam had not overcome temptation because he had not been exposed to the difference between evil and good.

Adam was created by God and all that God created was good for its purpose.  It doesn't necessarily follow that Adam was perfect because perfection is attained over time by a process of exercising the Spirit of Christ in our daily lives.

Adam was created an adult with powers of reasoning and I suppose language but without a history.

In somewhat similar manner a baby is born and begins to experience life without a history of sin or of selfishness other than wanting and needing tender care.  At some point in a child's development it becomes aware that it can manipulate its environment or the people in its environment and that is what leads to selfish desire.  I don't know when this can become temptation to sin, I suppose it depends upon the care it receives from the parents.  When does a child realize that it can make choices that are selfish?  Is awareness of evil intent necessary for sin to follow?

Adam of course was fully capable the moment he became conscious or at some later time as God counseled him and imparted essential knowledge.  I don't think we know how or when that could have been.

So, I don't think we can say that Adam was created perfect as Jesus was perfect.

comments anyone.

indianabob
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Gregor

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2007, 10:47:40 PM »

Greetings,
Just a couple verses to consider:

Rom.4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom.5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Would God telling Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil be considered the first law?
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sonofone

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2007, 11:55:48 PM »

Indiana and Gregor I see you are thinking. I am not going to say right now what I think about this.Jesus asked the Pharisees whether they believed Johns Baptism was from heaven or men and they would not answer because they knew the ramifications. Matthew 21 vs 23-27.
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Gregor

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2007, 12:30:12 AM »

Greetings sonofone,
I'm not sure what you meant by the last comments you made. ??? I see that you too are thinking, and that's all good as far as I'm concerned. Keep up the good work. ;) My previous post wasn't directed specifically at you, but just a general thought/question I'm throwing out to all who are posting here, "interpolating" as indiana put it, so feel free to reserve your thoughts if you feel there will be ramifications (none from me! I hope you don't think I'm a Pharasee trying to bait you into something?). I'm open to PM if that feels less threatening. I don't have all the answers either, and certainly don't have all the right questions. But one thing I do know, I really enjoy your participation in these threads and hope that you don't get frustrated too easily. Remember, no one here, L. Ray included, will have all the answers. Otherwise 1Cor.13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. -  would be of no effect. Remember it's a journey to the final destination, so enjoy it as much as possible. Kinda like having presents wrapped, waiting for the day you can finally open them and receive the joyful surprise.  ;D
Your Brother in Christ,
G.
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sonofone

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2007, 01:25:34 AM »

I'm sorry Gregor that's not what I meant by that. I enjoy your feedback as well. I do feel the need to pull up so to speak intellectually as to not to stir the pot to much,and out of respect to all those who enjoy the forum. I hope to never get to a place where people see my post and run the other way. I really want to learn and put my stuff out here to see if I'm missing it somewhere but I have to be cautious just the same. That's all I meant by that.
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sonofone

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2007, 01:47:06 AM »

New wrinkle,same question. If a person who has a drug problem is more likely to fall to the temptation of using drugs,and conversely a person who has not been predisposed would not.What if I was born without this predisposition to sin? Would it not give me at the very least a fighting chance to not sin? We already know what it is like to be predisposed to sin and how it makes it impossible not to sin as a result of this. To be clear we are not talking about being perfect,just being predisposed to sin.This seems to be the case for Jesus and quite possibly Adam depending on how you look at it.Any thoughts?
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Kat

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2007, 01:15:00 PM »


Hi sonofone,

In reading Ray's article on 'Saved By Grace Thru Faith' I come to see that it is through God's grace (divine influence on the heart) that gives anybody the means to NOT sin, and that includes Jesus Christ.  I do not believe Adam had divine influence on his heart.

The is a part of the article 'Saved By Grace Thru Faith'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html ------

Never once in the Old Testament is anybody ever talked about being spiritually saved or received salvation by grace.  It’s just not there.  I mean even King David, if God had divine influence on his heart, the way it’s suppose to be, why would he go to his death bed squeaking out his last words to his son, Solomon.  Telling him how he wants him to kill all his enemies and make it bloody.  Does that sound like divine influence upon your heart, from God?  It doesn’t sound like that to me. 

That’s what grace is, divine - divinity - God - Godly influence on your heart.  But now we’ve taken grace out of the realm of a noun, into a verb, it’s doing something you see.  Of course I said that a long time ago. 

Jesus didn’t need grace for any pardon of anything.  But did He need the influence of God, divine influence on His heart?  Absolutely.  That’s why He could live the way He did, accomplish what He did, never give in to wrong motives and temptations and all that.  He had this divine influence of God on His heart ALL THE TIME. 

So then we read Paul says, “But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace  (divine influence upon the heart) which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I….” (1 Cor 15:10) 
v
v
There are works, they’re just not ours.  But we are of His workmanship.  Workmanship has the word ‘work.’  The Concordant translates it ‘achievement.’  When you want to achieve something it takes work.  Who’s doing the work here?  God is doing the work.  What is that work?  Divine influence upon the heart and then you do things. 

Eph 2:10  “… created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God has afore ordained that we should walk in them.”

So there are works.

Rom 8:28  “And we know that God WORKS all (things), together for the good…”  Verse 29 “….predestined us to be conformed into the image of His Son.”

That is the whole thing.  What is the purpose of works?  To be conformed into the image of His Son.  What image is that?  The image of God.  So what is it that God is creating humanity in?  His image.  Was it completed?  No, it was not good, it was not so.  But it will be one day.  One day it will be so and it will be good.  God is changing the carnal physical human mind into His spiritual divine mind.

James 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can faith save him?

He ask the rhetorical question, “can faith save us?”  Of course the answer is no.  That’s interesting, you know faith is talked a lot about, as we are justified by faith, especially in Paul’s writing, Rom 3:30, Gal 3:8.  We are justified by faith, but nowhere does it say in the scripture that we are saved by faith, nowhere. 

We are saved by grace.  It’s free, gratuitous gift from God, but it does something.  It teaches - it chastens - it educates - it is divine influence upon the seat of our emotions - thinking - plans - purpose - goals - aspirations and everything else.  It divinely influences that heart, you can’t help it, it does it. 

This just smacks free will right in the teeth.  According to true free will, God can’t make you do anything, you have to choose it on your own.  How can you choose to do good unless God divinely influences your heart?  You see, you can’t.  But the second you say He does, you’ve taken away man’s free will. 
-----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Gregor

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2007, 01:38:57 PM »

Greetings sonofone,
Your drug analogy is worded ambiguously; you need to clarify "predisposed". Rom 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

Sorry, but as long as you have a belly-button, you will always be predisposed to sin. It is God's will. You do have a fighting chance at resisting sin if you: Rom.12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
All the best,
G.     
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sonofone

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2007, 01:52:14 PM »

The point I am trying to raise is this.All of us are sinners,yet each of us miss the mark or sin in different areas, Some here may struggle with drugs,or alcohol,my struggle could be pride,or lying.When I say pre-disposed I am speaking of mans carnal nature that we are all born with.Born in sin born to sin. If we could suppose,which we have that this was not the nature which Jesus came in,does that put Jesus the man in at the very least a more favorable state than us? Lastly if this supposition is true,if Adam was created in this same state the question is the same.
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Gregor

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Re: Jesus Nature?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2007, 02:37:46 PM »

This is just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth to you. Words can be ambiguous, and that too is the divine purpose of God (See Gen.11:1-9). Yes, Jesus was in a more favorable position than all of us, in that he was the only begotten son of God. But do you consider having that great responsibility and weight on your shoulders to be called the "Saviour of the world" and to face the way in which it would be accomplished (death on the cross, shame, and sheding of His own innocent blood) favorable? Adam (created of dust, not begotten) had the spirit of life imparted to him with the intended will of God that he would sin. Does that sound favorable? However Jesus, He, and only He, is worthy to to be called  Lord and Savior, the author and finisher of our faith, revealing the grace of God, and reconcilling man to Him. None of us could ever deserve the praise or honour that Jesus does. That is why God chose Him. What carnal man fails to do by works, God himself will do for us (by faith), and literally for us. That God would want to create (a work in progress) us in his image is mindboggling. The entirety of the bible deals with this and takes a lifetime plus to fully grasp. Supposition and chasing wisdom and knowledge can be like grasping for the wind. Rather, pray and seek God, that the Spirit of God may alight upon you. May peace and grace be yours in Christ.
G.
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