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Jesus Nature?
Kat:
Hi sonofone,
I picked out this part of your post to reply to.
--- Quote ---vs 4-5 You shall not surely die. God knows that when you eat your eyes will be opened. you will be as God knowing both good an evil?The devil is always in the details. This was the wrong way to be like God.The correct way was the tree of life. Adam knew this, that is why he was not deceived. He knew that this tree did not represent Gods best.We now know what the tree of life represents,but did Adam?Yes I believe he did.So nakedness according to my understanding in the case of Adam prior to the fall was not sin or sinful nature,to say so is to openly say that God created sinful creatures when we know that God can have no dealings with sin thus the death and separation from God once they did sin.
--- End quote ---
This last part that says, God can have no dealings with sin.
We know that Jesus Christ is the God of the OT and He dealt with sinning Israel a great deal. Even if you say not directly, but through Moses, Moses was a sinner. And He came and lived on earth, where everybody was sinners. I'm just not sure what you mean by that statement. Also He will certainly deal with sinners when He judges the world.
2Tim 4:1 Therefore I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to judge the living and the dead according to His appearance and His kingdom,
You say, We now know what the tree of life represents,but did Adam?Yes I believe he did. How could Adam have understood this? No one in the OT understood who Jesus Christ was, they thought the Messiah was coming to rule the world, not to die on a cross. Adam could not have understood that the God that he spoke with, was someday going to be born a man and live on earth. The tree of life was not offered to Adam or anybody in the OT. It was only after Christ's resurrection that the Holy Spirit was offered.
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.
Adam was like all other humans that are born with only a mind that understands fleshly matters, he never had the Holy Spirit.
When he ate the fruit, that was when he began to understand the difference between right and wrong, just like every child reaches a point where they too began to realize some things that they do are bad.
If Adam had lived alone for some time before God created Eve, we know Adam didn't eat of the tree while he was alone. So it was not until they were together that they came to the tree, so that they could have there eyes opened to understand right and wrong at the same time. They were beginning the experience together. They may have started out differently being created instead of born, but I think it is the same thing we all go through, learning from experience about good and evil.
Just my thoughts on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
sonofone:
Thanks for your reply Kat, I anticipated this response from you so I am ready to give an answer. On the first point.God having no dealing with sin. I'm sorry but sometimes I assume that certain truths are universal to believers in God. I assumed that we all knew that sin separated us from God and that is why we needed a Savior I would recommend reading the book of Hebrews for anyone still confused or uncertain about this.I can not give you every chapter and verse as it would take all day for me to type it. Hebrews 10 vs 3-7vs 16-18, But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins. Wherefore,when he cometh into the world, he saith,sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me.In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I,Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will O God.This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,saith the lord: I will put my laws into their hearts,and in their minds will I write them,and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is,their is no more offering for sin.It was sin that separated us from God Romans 5vs 10 For if,when we were enemies,we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, much more, being reconciled,we shall be saved by his life,and not only so,but we also joy in God through our lord Jesus Christ,by whom we have now received the reconciliation.Colossians 1 vs 21 And you that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works,yet now hath he reconciled. It was Jesus who reconnected us back to the father. You can not be reconciled if you were never connected,you can not be alienated or estranged if you had not broken fellowship.God our Father has no dealing with sin. Gen 1 vs 29 says And God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness. That certainly included Jesus,but it did not exclude God our father who has nothing to do with sin.Gen 2 vs 7 And the lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;and man became a living soul. I don't see anywhere in here that God breathed sin into the nostrils of man. Man sinned not god if God did this than he should be the one repenting not us.On the point of Adam knowing about the tree of life,conjecture; I said I believe he did. You say God did not offer him the tree of life? I think you made a mistake in typing this. Gen 2 vs 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. vs 16 And the Lord God commanded the man saying,of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat;But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,thou shalt not eat of it,for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.vs 22 And the lord God said behold the man is become as one of us to know good and evil;and now LEST HE PUT FORTH HIS HAND,AND TAKE IT ALSO OF THE TREE OF LIFE,AND EAT AND LIVE FOREVER.
Now on another note I saw something I had not considered before today. God offered them both trees. The tree of life is the one that interest me the most, because Adam was not dead spiritually nor was he dying physically at the point that God offered him the tree of life? Why did he offer him life when he already had life? If he was already sinful as you suppose,he would have life in a sinful state VS 22 blows this theory out of the water that is the whole reason why God put an Angel with a flaming sword to guard the tree. By the self same same token if he was already perfect as the church claims he was he would not have needed the tree of life. So why did God offer them the tree when he did?
Kat:
Hi sonofone,
This is getting confusing to me and beyond my ability to discuss. I think it would be good to email Ray concerning this matter :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
skydreamers:
Hi sonofone,
I appreciate your comments! We certainly are all in a process of learning, and to me looking at things from all angles helps us continue to seek after truth. I do not see you as a “wolf” at all, just someone desiring to understand as I am too, and if we are in disagreement on some points, well that creates challenge for all of us and in the challenge we learn all the more. ;) :)
--- Quote ---Now as for the most recent response to my post,this is where questions yet remain after I consider what was said.Nakedness to represent sin.Adam and Eve were in a sinful nature before eating of the tree.To the first point the argument is compelling, in fact it is not even debateable,Adam was naked, but he was not ashamed.He was as God had made him or created him,innocent. He had not as yet sinned or transgressed, therefore he required no covering,he was covered by God, he enjoyed perfect fellowship with God in the garden,he was spiritually alive
--- End quote ---
Here are just some thoughts while reading through your post. (Not to say I think that I am right about everything...I struggle to understand things too.) ;) ;)
I agree that Adam was innocent, even naïve, in that he didn't yet “know” anything. I think however, that he was also spiritually weak and adversity was yet required in his life in order to spiritually strengthen him. I think it is a principal that is reflected in everything around us: we cannot get stronger without opposing forces. We are called to be “overcomers”, and how would this be possible if there was nothing to overcome. Even our Saviour was made perfect through suffering while he was living life in the flesh. If He clearly had to go that route, showing us by example, saying that He was "the way, the truth, and the life" than it seems logically this too must be how any of us can become "perfect"...how could it have been any different for Adam? So I'm not sure if we agree or disagree on this point, but I see that there could have been NO OTHER WAY but for Adam to eat of that tree if he was ever to be “perfected” and come into being in the “image of God”. So it seems to me that it was God's ultimate intention for him to eat of that tree in order that the “process” of perfection could begin. It is my perspective that Adam and Eve were created with a carnal nature, and this would ensure that they would eat of the tree of knowledge, since we have scripture to show the natural built “lusts of the flesh” which Eve committed before she actually performed the act. The pull to sin was already existent IN HER even if she had yet not actively transgressed.
--- Quote ---The other important piece of this puzzle as it relates to this nakedness,is the tree of Life that Adam could have ate from as well,the choice was his to make,it was there in the middle of the garden,along with the tree of good and evil.As I mentioned in an earlier post,we are not given any information about this tree,as we are about the other tree. There is only given the command to eat of any tree in the garden but this particular one.
--- End quote ---
It's true that we are not given any information on the tree of life in the Genesis account, so we cannot know if they ate of it or they did not. It seems that it was made available to them. But here's the thing which Ray points out: the tree of K of G/E was definitely desirable to Eve. And it has been said that the tree of life represents Jesus (I think most would agree). And if we can look elsewhere in scripture for the description of this tree I think it's possible to see a connection with this verse regarding Jesus being like a "tree" that was NOT DESIRABLE:
Isaiah 53:2
For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
Jesus who is the tree of life had no beauty that we through our carnal nature should desire him.
So here's the scenario as I see it. Tree of Life was perhaps “pleasant to the sight and good for food” spiritually speaking. But since Adam and Eve were spiritually “weak” they were not pulled to that tree. Their carnal natures were yet stronger and so the tree that was desirable, and thus the one they could not resist, was the one that spoke to the carnal lusts within them:
Genesis 3:6
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.
Notice the Tree of K of G/E is given a distinction here it seems from any other tree in the garden: “the tree was to be desired TO MAKE ONE WISE” What motivated her to be drawn to the tree is that insidious voice of the serpent through what I believe to be actually her own carnal mind. That's where Satan gets his power. The beast is rearing it's ugly head and already taking its seat on the throne: Because as you pointed out the snake told her that eating of it would open her eyes and she would be like God....this is “the pride of life”...which I believe comes from within us, and so we begin the process of God breaking down that pride by giving us an experience of evil to humble us.
What I see happening in the garden is what I think NEEDS to happen for every individual. Adam and Eve were not ashamed not because they had no reason to be ashamed but because they didn't know any better. But when temptation was put before them their prideful nature came to light....and so they needed to be covered, they needed to be humbled.
--- Quote ---The command also came with the punishment,you shall surely die. Loss of innocence,loss of life IE death both naturally and spiritually.
--- End quote ---
Something Ray has also pointed out is the verse
Genesis 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die
actually reads like this in an interlinear:
“that in-day-of to-eat-you from-him to-die (muth) you-shall-die(thmuth)”
So I think this verse holds a big clue to their condition, in that, they were already dying. Man is made of dust and dust returns to dust. It doesn't seem according to other scriptures that the physical body God created for humanity to live in, was ever meant to exist forever. First the physical then the spiritual. The physical (and that's everything) is fading away and will make way for the new spiritual existence. The first Adam (earthy fleshly and thus carnal man) must decrease while the second Adam (Jesus) must increase, until death (sin) is swallowed up by life (Jesus).
It is my view that they (Adam and Eve) were already dying the physical death, same as we all are the second we are born...it's only inevitable for all of us that we shall meet the physical death...
So “dying” (they were already marching to death) “you shall surely die” (the spiritual death...being dead in sin began at the tree, when we come to see our need for the tree of life, that we must die to the old man of sin and live as the new creation in Christ).
But there is no access to the tree of life without going through the flaming sword...the spirit of the Word of truth that burns out the hay and the stubble from within us.
Genesis 3:24
He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.
--- Quote ---So nakedness according to my understanding in the case of Adam prior to the fall was not sin or sinful nature,to say so is to openly say that God created sinful creatures when we know that God can have no dealings with sin thus the death and separation from God once they did sin.
--- End quote ---
However we look at this: whether we were in a sinful nature, or in a carnal nature prone to sin, or spiritually weak being pulled by the “earthy” flesh....the result is all the same...we will sin when faced with something we are not yet strong enough to overcome. God made man as a marred vessel (physical) and will remake mankind into another vessel (spiritual). The physical is temporary and was always meant to be temporary. It is God the Potter who made humanity into a marred vessel to begin with....
Jeremiah 18:4-6
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make...says the LORD. Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand
If we insist that Adam could have chosen otherwise, than we have to say that God meant for Adam and Eve and all the generations to be forever prancing naked around the garden of Eden eating from the tree of life like gleeful naïve little children who haven't a clue about anything! But I believe that God created a "marred vessel" with the intention of reworking it into "another vessel".
I believe God, who has a full understanding of everything He is not, that is, everything that is opposite to Himself, would want his created beings to have this same knowledge, so that we will be like Him. God IS CREATING man in His image, He isn't done yet, nor was He done in the garden of Eden. I think Ray has said somewhere, God isn't working at getting us back to the same state humanity was in, in the garden, God doesn't work backwards, God always moves forward in progression...and what once had glory is surpassed by a greater glory that He has planned for our future.
2 Corinthians 3:10-11
Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
--- Quote ---I do not hold that Adam was created or made perfect,just sinless,which we can not claim.
--- End quote ---
I see Adam and Eve (and all of humanity) being created as “carnal” (having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites, governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God) which ultimately will lead to “transgressions” (violations of the law) and “sins” (missing the mark). Also we are “earthy” (of the dust, dirty). Both descriptive conditions lead to death. Being carnal leads to being spiritually dead in your sins. Being earthy leads to being physically dead, as dust is destined to return to dust.
John 12:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
We must die, it is part of the process to becoming like God. Therefore, if we must die, than eating of the tree of knowledge is mandatory.
That's my perspective at this point, but I always pray that God will correct false understandings and deepen any truths He may have given us. The journey continues!
Peace,
Diana
sonofone:
Hey Diana,thanks for the post. I think you have made some valid points and I am sorry that I don't know how to paste your responses to speak to them point by point. The only thing I want to cover right now is the importance of understanding the nature of Adam and what happened in the garden. If he was as I hold not born in sin as we are, and the carnal nature not in tact then he had a chance to do right.If he was born in sin or carnal as I suppose you and others here believe than sin lies with God not man because would have created them this way.It would have been the only choice they could have made. If this is true ,than for me God is a mad man,and I would gladly walk away with whatever life I have left and live to my fullest satisfaction because my very existence would be in the hands of a mad man.I don't believe this to be the case, I believe God to be just and righteous. Having said that I don't hold that God wanted a different outcome,after all he is God he could have made man in his image without having to go through any of this. So I don't believe that God resorted to plan B,or C -Z. I just believe that God allowed man or Adam to chose for himself and in doing so he was justified to set the penalty,because he could have chose better.Adam ate to follow his wife not because his carnal nature took over. We don't read that Adam was drawn away of his own lust.We only read that he listened to the voice of his wife,and that he was not deceived. Eve was deceived not Adam,he knew better he was not naive,he knew better.That matters to me because it means that he is accountable for his action,and it further means that I am accountable for my action. That is why I repented and repent that is why I got saved. If you tell me that I did not sin I was just born or created a sinner,than I have no reason to be sorry. I came to God because I wanted to avoid his wrath,I stayed because I found out he loved me,and in him loving me I found out that I love him too.We love him because he first loved us. The bible also says draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh unto you. I view this as a partnership, that is afterall what a covenant is. It is an agreement between two or more parties. Both sides make agreements and promises. I can not believe it the way you guys do. I believe God is just and righteous.I have heard nothing in any of your post to convince me otherwise,but I am open to hear your thoughts. Thanks again.
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