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Jesus Nature?

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skydreamers:

--- Quote from: sonofone on September 29, 2007, 06:22:43 PM ---Thanks for the question Kat. It has always been my understanding that Adam and Eve were created sinless. That is not the same as being perfect,just had not sinned therefore no sin nature. I have always believed that sin was introduced into the world by Adam's disobedience to God's command. I was under the impression that the carnal nature of man was activated once they ate of the fruit. I thought that's what God meant when he said that there eyes were opened.I thought it was this sin that separated them from God. Before this happened they were in fellowship with God,afterwards they were not.I could go on but I think you get where I am coming from.By the way am I to take by your question that Ray teaches the opposite?

--- End quote ---

Hi sonofone,

Here's something interesting to consider:

nakedness is said to represent "sin" or the "sinful nature":

Revelation 3:17-18
For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.

But there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God including our nakedness:

Romans 8:35-39
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?....For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, NOR ANYTHING ELSE in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Just because Adam and Eve were "naked" (in the sinful nature=carnal) does not mean they were separated from God.

They were naked before and were not ashamed, they had not yet eaten of the tree so what could they have really known or understood....how could they have known they were naked...as opposed to what?  They were not ashamed because they were not aware of being naked or what that even meant ...they needed to eat of the tree to even begin to understand the "law of opposites or contrasts".

Once they ate, they became aware of their own condition...the same condition they had been in before.  When you are called by God to be a Christian the long road to understanding your true "condition" begins.  The secular world has no awareness of this, and even most if not all of the "called" even understand their true condition.  It is when God calls you out of the world and it's systems, including the religious systems, you begin to see the "beast" inside of you, that is, your true condition, the same one you had all along.  And then you truly see the need to be clothed by white garments (Jesus) to cover your nakedness (sin).  There are not too many that can see or accept that humanity is actually innately bad rather than good.

Adam and Eve became aware of their inherent carnality (hostility towards God) and this resulted in fear of God, thus they hid from Him.

Before eating the fruit:

Genesis 2:25
And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

After eating the fruit:

Genesis 3:9-11
But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?" And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."  He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"

Romans 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law

This is where I think Gregor might be right.  Adam and Eve were "in a sinful nature" before eating of the tree.  God's command to not eat was the first law, perhaps, or first introduction to the prinicipal of law, because without law there can be no transgression of the law

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 5:20
And the Law came in that the transgression might increase....

(you cannot be saved until you are first lost...)

The carnal nature was always there....God provides a law:  "do not eat" and this brings the sinful nature to light....

Just as the 10 commandments could not be kept by a carnal people, neither could God's commandment to "not eat" be kept by Adam and Eve...

So it seems there is such a thing as being carnal...in a sinful nature...but not being aware...and as long as you are not aware/conscious of your nature it is not counted as sin.  How can you know something is "wrong" if you don't know "right" from "wrong".  Adam and Even were unaware and unknowledgable before they ate.  But once they became knowledgable of good and evil, they were left with no excuses.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Now you could say, Adam knew that God had said "not to eat of the tree".  But how did he know that to "oppose" God was wrong....how did he really know or understand the goodness of God...as opposed to what?  How did he know it was wrong to disobey God?

All of this comes down to the way God is fashioning for himself a family that is in his image....time, experience and circumstance....summed up by living a life in the flesh which is in direct opposition to God.  In this way we learn about evil and learn to hate it, and learn about goodness and learn to love it....

That's how I see it anyways.  There is no learning without contrasts, struggles and adversities.  And where there is no learning, there simply is not growth.

Peace to you,
Diana

dawnnnny:
Wow Diana, awesome response. 
Its interesting that I know all these scriptures, yet when they are combined to "teach" a concept, they become so much clearer.
I could feel God's spirit all over it.  :)
Thank you for sharing!

indianabob:
Well said Diana,

Thank you for your thoughts and expressions of love.

indianabob

Gregor:

--- Quote from: sonofone on September 29, 2007, 09:07:06 PM ---I don't understand how Adam and Eve could have been spiritually and physically alive if they were created in sin. Sin brings death,spiritual and physical. If they were already sinful before they ate the fruit why were they not already spiritually disconnected from God?We are born spiritually dead and physically dying.

--- End quote ---

Greetings sonofone,

I'm not sure if you've had any resolve in understanding on this yet, but here are a few more scriptures (with my thoughts) to consider in this dichotomy: NJKV

Ecc. 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit (living, not dead) will return to God who gave it.

Job 34:13-15 Who gave Him charge over the earth? Or who appointed Him over the whole world? If He should set His heart on it, if He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.

Acts 14: 15-17 and saying, "Men (idol worshippers), why are you doing these things? We (Paul and Barnabas) also are men with the same nature (sinful, carnal, flesh) as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these vain things (idols) to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, who in bygone generations (all generations prior to the manifestation of Jesus) allowed all nations to walk in their own ways. Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness."

James 1:14,15,26 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren (reference to Eve, wife of Adam, type - relationship between church/bride and Christ, made possible by the Spirit through Faith). vs.26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

Gal.4:19 My little children (immature/not full-grown in understanding), for whom I (Paul/male) labor in birth (female - Eve) again until Christ (anointing, author/finisher of faith) is formed (Spirit) in you,

What justification is there for dust living, apart from the Spirit of the living God? See Rom.3:21-26. Not sure where all this is leading, but hope it sheds some light. Let me know if it helps any.
Your brother in Christ,
G.

sonofone:
I am always thankful just to hear you guys respond to my post. I know I say it a lot,but I appreciate your feedback. As a side note I have always learned in a somewhat confrontational style. That is to say I speak what I believe and hold it against reasonable debate.That's how I landed here. God opened up my understanding on the issues of tithes over ten years ago. I was at the time the only one I knew of that thought this way,so you can imagine that stumbling upon Ray's site brought great joy.Brothers,and sisters I hesitate quite often to post my thoughts,because the last thing I want to do is cause confusion,or discord.I don't stand in opposition for arguments sake.This is what I firmly believe.I am not one who is a Wolfe who has sneaked in on you unaware,to undermine all that you believe and hold true.I do read Ray's teachings and I don't consider myself to be in opposition to what he says. There are some things that I have read that present questions in my head,this just happens to be one of them.I say this not because anyone has given me a hard time,I just want as many of you who happen to read my post to know what my heart and intent is. Now as for the most recent response to my post,this is where questions yet remain after I consider what was said.Nakedness to represent sin.Adam and Eve were in a sinful nature before eating of the tree.To the first point the argument is compelling, in fact it is not even debateable,Adam was naked, but he was not ashamed.He was as God had made him or created him,innocent. He had not as yet sinned or transgressed, therefore he required no covering,he was covered by God, he enjoyed perfect fellowship with God in the garden,he was spiritually alive.The other important piece of this puzzle as it relates to this nakedness,is the tree of Life that Adam could have ate from as well,the choice was his to make,it was there in the middle of the garden,along with the tree of good and evil.As I mentioned in an earlier post,we are not given any information about this tree,as we are about the other tree. There is only given the command to eat of any tree in the garden but this particular one.The command also came with the punishment,you shall surely die. Loss of innocence,loss of life IE death both naturally and spiritually. Which is the disconnect,separation from God alienated from God. This was a result of disobedience,not the fruit. The fruit gave them a knowledge of good and evil,but notice it was the serpent that gave them this bit of information not God. Of course he distorted it and caused Eve to be deceived thinking that God was witholding valuable information from her.This is what caused her to transgress. This has also been an interesting point for me, sorry to go down a side street here,did the serpent lie,or tell the truth here. vs 4-5 You shall not surely die. God knows that when you eat your eyes will be opened. you will be as God knowing both good an evil?The devil is always in the details. This was the wrong way to be like God.The correct way was the tree of life. Adam knew this, that is why he was not deceived. He knew that this tree did not represent Gods best.We now know what the tree of life represents,but did Adam?Yes I believe he did.So nakedness according to my understanding in the case of Adam prior to the fall was not sin or sinful nature,to say so is to openly say that God created sinful creatures when we know that God can have no dealings with sin thus the death and separation from God once they did sin. In sinning they required a covering not naturally but spiritually being physically naked was no sin,but being spiritually stained was,that is what required covering. So your point is valid I just feel it is misapplied.The scripture that says sin was in the world before the law is also misapplied because it refers to the law of moses which did not exist from the time of Adam to Moses.The point that Paul was making was, from the point that Adam sinned until the law was given sin reigned and existed.The absence of law did not mean that they were not sinners or sinning.I think it is easy to mix things up and confuse issues and cause a great deal of error when scriptures are misapplied.Romans 5 vs 14 Wherefore,as by one man sin entered  into the world,and by sin,and so death passed upon all men,for all have sinned.For until the law sin was in the world;but sin is not imputed when there is no law.Nevertheless,death reigned from Adam to Moses,even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,who is the figure of him that was to come. If you read one verse without the other, context is lost ,and scripture misapplied. The whole point that Paul was raising is clear. First that sin came into the world not by Adam being created but by his transgression,vs 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.So sin came by disobedience not creation.As I mentioned in an earlier post, unlike Adam we are born and shaped in iniquity,born spiritually dead and physically dying,this was not the case for Adam. I do not hold that Adam was created or made perfect,just sinless,which we can not claim. without any law we sin, children sin adults sin.To say that Adam was born in sin would have meant that he would have been like us sinning unconsciously until the law or mirror showed him what he was doing.Secondly death reigned from this point forward because sin continued in the world even though there was no law, or law of moses the proof of this vs 14 death reigned from Adam to Moses which is the penalty of sin. I hope this makes sense. Because you can't have it both ways.Adam could not have been borne in sin and not have been spiritually and physically dead. The law or command did not activate this nature or even reveal a sin nature the law along with its penalty,and subsequent transgression, brought on this sin nature. That was the promise from God if you do,you shall. Cause and effect.You eat you die. Theres more I want to say but I have to go to a doctors appointment. Post back I will have more time to clear things up if need be when I get back. Thanks again everyone.

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