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Deborah-Leigh:
feat I will quote you in black font italics. I respond in blue font.

You did indeed falsely accuse me of omitting john 17:12.

You omitted this scripture in your follow up post. I conceded that I did miss that you had entered it into your earlier posts.

 You were so eager to counter my post that you didn't even bother to understand it.

I object to that slanderous assumption.

 I would be impossible to miss the intent of the verses I posted if you were truly reading my post for understanding my point of view.

Your point of view is not my point of view.

 You can deny this all you want

I am big enough to admit that I missed that you had indeed entered the scripture you skipped out in your follow up post. My nature is not one that will deny this as you falsely accuse me of.

but is there for all to see.  It is one of several bullying tactics that you use

I object to this slanderous accusation.

which I find difficult to deal with. 

I contend with no one who prefers to go their own way think their own thoughts and rationalise their own understanding. It is a condition of carnal man not to want to be wrong even if it is God#s Word that is speaking. The authority is not mine and the words I speak are those that God has inspired through His Word not my opinions of His Word or my understanding of His Word or my reliance on what is my anchor that is the Truth of His Word that I share here in the Forum as my thoughts.

This is one of several reasons why  I am reluctant to discuss topics with you.

I will go more easy on you in future knowing that you feel so vulnerable and reluctant to express your views, opinions and beliefs because you think I am the big bad bully. Will you think that if I disagree with you or if my "views" counter your own comfort zones or opinions?

You ask : let's review Judas situation.  If he had indeed lived a lifetime of rebellion and ungodliness, how would he come to be a follower of the Christ.

Simple. Take a carnal man and cause him to seek the power fame and glory. I heard John Hage tonight say as he preached to his audience in Israel, that the reason Jesus cried  " My God My God, why have You forsaken me? " according to Hage, was because God in that moment looked AWAY from His Son because Jesus Christ BECAME SIN! It is a matter of FACT not FICTION, OPINION OR CONJECTURE that Jesus while on earth in the body, that some 10 percent of the daily conversation of Jesus consisted of Old Testament words quoted literally. Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 as he cried out in fulfilment for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear that He is the Son of God crucified wherein that same Psalm expressed His agony. Here is the the Word of God Psalm 22 : 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; it is softened with anguish and melted down within me. 15. My strength is dried up like a fragment of clay pottery;  with thirst my tongue cleaved to my jaws; and You have brought me into the dust of death. 16. For like a pack of dogs they have encompassed me; a company of evildoers has encircled me, THEY PIERCED MY HANDS AND MY FEET. You ask about Judas. Of all the Apostles Judas was the treasurer. He kept the money. John 13 : 29 Some thought that since Judas had the MONEY BOX Jesus was telling him, Buy what we need for the Festival, or that he should give something to the poor.

The Word of God is Spirit and is Truth. Acts 1 : 18 Now this man (Judas) obtained a piece of land with the money paid him as a reward for his treachery and wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle of his body and all his intestines poured forth. 19 And all the residents of Jerusalem became acquainted with the facts,so that they called the piece of land in their own dialect - Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.

Now why do you doubt? You ask : if as you say Judas was a total reprobate, how did he come to have extreme feelings of remorse? ....Where did this torment come from....

Your answer is again not opinion but is in the Word of God 2 Cor 7 : 10 For Godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to SALVATION ( like Peter experienced...Godly grief and bitter tears) and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret: ( that is the deliverance from evil never brings regret ) but WORLDLY GRIEF the hopeless sorrow that is characteristic of the pagan world is deadly, breeding and ENDING IN DEATH. ( remember Judas kept the MONEY)

Can you see Judas in this description or do you still prefer to doubt? You build a fiction and base it in what you believe I SEEM to think. You say : You seem to think that Judas suicide was a willful act of a sane man

There is no such thought in my mind that Judas was either sane or acting from free will. I believe he was acting out of carnality and a spiritually weak heart that acted and failed to achieve his purpose and plan.

You continue to build on this seeming thought that you attribute to me by saying that I think Judas, quote : who was acting against the will of God.

Of course Judas was acting against the Will of God. God Wills that non should perish. Judas is and was destined to perish and God Will save him in the end. Judas was right in the Plan of God.  God's Will and God's Plan are two very different things.  Perhaps someone else here in the Forum can direct you to some teachings on this topic. It is well worth reviewing and is pivotal to grasping Truth and understanding the Wisdom of God. As for me... I am doing what I can here just answering you.

You say :   You present a straw man argument you invented in an attempt to insinuate that I am a heretic.  Another of your bully techniques.

No. My thoughts are not arguments. They are my thoughts. You accuse me of employing a bully technique. Noted. I shall try to tell you what I think with softer tones. I have no need to convince you and neither do I have any motive to get you to agree with me. I simply enjoy putting into writing what I think from the bottom of my soul. Your thoughts motivate my answers and I enjoy discovering and recalling what I have read in the Word of God.

You ask : Just what exactly do you think the LOF will be? What is this torment that is to be endured?

feat the LOF is the second death. We are cautioned by Jesus that we should pray that we are found worthy to escape the things that are coming on the world. Just WHAT is coming on the world but the WRATH of God. Jesus also says that we should pray for the strength to be able to STAND before HIM. what guilt ridden exposed thief and murderer will be able to stand when their evil ways and works are made known before the Lamb of God and His Angels? Only the pure of heart will see God or be able to STAND in HIS Presence don't you think? (Please NOTE....Caps are used for EMPHASIS of what I think and is not used to show I am shouting at you or anyone or in ANY way attempting to demean or belittle anyone. REMEMBER I too am a BRETHREN please! This is NOT a debate but an honest exchange of thoughts without malice. OKAY?)


You say : You seem to think ...

There you go again building on the premise of what you say I SEEM TO THINK.... :D...Lets look at the premise you present then...You present the following : there has to be some demonstrable fruit for you to see

What is so wrong with this feat? By their fruit you shall know them right? Even John the Baptist scolded the Pharasies and asked them who had warned them and to have first the fruit of repentance before he would baptise them. So if John the Baptist is the least born of woman in the Kingdom of God....what should we be doing then if not having a higher standard of appraisal and discernment to the realization and comprehensive insight into knowing how to distinguish good from evil? Why do I think I lost you there? Look at it again. Why are you here on this earth. Why am I here on this earth if not to become the image of the Son of God in His life and in His Spirit. What is His Spirit? His Spirit is of God who knows how to distinguish between good and evil and His Word is sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing assunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART. Heb 4 : 12


rather that spiritual realizations on Judas part

feat I do not believe you have any justification in feeling hurt or bullied that I pay attention to what you are saying.  You say and lets recap... that I seem to think there has to be fruit ...rather than spiritual realization on Judas part.

Do you fault me if I see this statement as meaning that you believe you have spiritual realization of Judas part. Are you presenting your views in favor of Judas. Are you acting as Advocate for the down trodden? Is this what you are being caused to do? It seems that way because of your words that contend against me believing in and following the Word of God that says we shall know them by their fruit. What is wrong with that? Why does spiritual realization of Judas part over rule, eclipse or make wrong the way in which we are to discern good from evil by and through the observation of the fruit of the Spirit?  Sorry if this sounds like bullying. It is not meant as such so perhaps you can clarify for me why your comment above presents this conclusion. If my thought is wrong then I will indeed be most pleased, delighted and happy for you.


You add to this summation that  there is an allowance that prevents or holds back from Judas for seeing his error. :

that allow him to see his error. We do not know his heart or mind as God does. You probably have not met many people with mutliple personalities or extreme cases of bipolar dysfunction.  I am not saying Judas had these problems but am only using them as an example of how the mind can become unstable.
 

the subject of God allowing anything is another subject of teaching that is very important and could also be re addressed because it is pivotal to understanding God and His ways. Already this post is getting entirely too long....

You say : I hope I have addressed all that you wished me to comment on.

I have thoroughly enjoyed responding to you. I hope next time you will not use personal feelings against me to accuse me of being a bully or your reason not to communicate. More exchanges such as these can only be constructive if not reduced to personal assult. I hope you continue to have the courage to bring forth your thoughts and understandings in the light of this Forum which is certainly here to present the Truth of Christ and not the opinions or beliefs that fall outside of what we have learnt through Ray Smith.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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