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Harryfeat:

--- Quote from: Arcturus on October 07, 2007, 12:17:09 PM ---Hello Harryfeat

I find it stange that you omit the following scripture in your sumation that says you find no proof that Judas did not recieve the Holy Spirit. Here is the proof. Here is Jesus Christ speaking to the Father....

  John 17 : 12  While I was with them I kept and preserved them in Your Name, in the knowledge and worship of You. THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME I guarded ( Did not Jesus pray for Peter adivsing him that Satan desired to sift him like wheat but that He Jesus Had prayed for Peter? ) and protected (When Satan entered Judas did Jesus protect him? No. He bid him to do quickly what he had to do.) and not one of THEM has perished or is lost EXCEPT THE SON OF PERDITION JUDAS ISCARIOT  - the  one who is now doomed to destruction, destined to be lost, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus said it. It is true. Those who God gives, drags to Christ, are those God selects for Christ to conform to His image by and through His Spirit. Those who are NOT dragged or given to Christ BY GOD, (not given by the preacher, the Priest, an eleven second sinners prayer or the representitive of Harlot Babylon,) but given by God...are those for whom Jesus prayed.

I have no reason to believe that Judas will  not have to face the LOF White Throne judgment to be purified and sanctified and eventually saved. I bleive the proof of this is in the statements recorded for us in the word of God and spoken to God by Christ Himself.

Peace be to you
Arcturus

--- End quote ---
Hello Arcturus,

Please be at peace.

I respect and take into consideration your judgments and opinions but view them only as such.  You might be right about Judas  or you might be absolutely wrong.  I for one don't really know his destiny.  Given scriptural evidence I also see that it seems to make a strong case in favor of your opinion. However, how do we know that the extreme mental agony which drove him to madness and suicide was not his LOF.
We all sin.  We are hopefully going through our LOF in this life. Who is to say that Judas torment is not a shadow of this?

I would caution you to read and understand a post before you start making false accusations.  If you go back to my post you will note that not only did I quote john 17:12 but I also said  it was more damaging evidence to consider and even underlined the part of John 17:12 pertaining to Judas.

The verses  I quoted were from CLV and didn't include the additions of your post. John 17 seems to me to be Jesus prayer to the Father to keep safe those apostles left in the world.  I didn't discern from those verses that Judas did not receive the Holy Spirit before his death.  He may not have for all I can tell.  However, the whole message of John 17 tells me that Judas was truly one of the chosen.  He was loved just as the other apostles. Jesus kept him like the others until the devil entered him.  No Jesus didn't stop it because it had be foredestined to be.  Reading that one of them "perished" didn't say that he did not receive the Holy Spirit before his death.  Judas was no longer alive with the rest of the apostles to go and preach the gospel.
You may be right in your interpretation that it means he died without receiving the spirit but then again you may be wrong.

be blessed,
feat

Deborah-Leigh:
Hello feat

You ask : how do we know that the extreme mental agony which drove him to madness and suicide was not his LOF. We all sin.  We are hopefully going through our LOF in this life.  

I do not believe that a tormenting end to life is the fix for a life time of rebellion and ungodliness. I do not believe that God instills His Spirit of Wisdom, Knowledge, Council, Understanding, Power and Love, without fruit.

To say or believe or teach that God terminates life in a anguished and horrible way as a means for us to avoid repentance, separation from sin and finally sanctification and through judgment righteousness, is to say, for me, that God is a terrorist and forces through pain, our submission and servitude to Him. That for me is heresy. God is a God of freedom not bondage.

On the surface, this assumption that pain in the last phase of life is Gods way of ending our sins and changing our souls is without substance or support of the Scriptures as I understand this. I do concure that it is a temptation to think that the suffering that some endure in the end of their lives is judgement but I also see that the scriptures also say as you sow so you reap. If we reap bad does that mean we learn good?

For me, Jesus did not pray for Judas. Judas was destined for destruction. The children of God are not going to experience the wrath of God. That's Gods Word.   It is fact not fiction. It is Truth not deception. It is the way of God not man. It is how God has expressed Himself through His Word and this is either received or rejected depending on which way we see is wiser, holier or better suited to us.

I did not make false accusations. I answered your post. Indeed I did miss that you had quoted John 17 : 12 but let me ask you, Why do you consider John 17 : 12 as you say as "damaging evidence to consider "? I do not find the word of God damaging evidence but enlightening instruction.

You say regarding John 17 : 12 I didn't discern from those verses that Judas did not receive the Holy Spirit before his death.

Let me understand this. So if I am to take what you say above as realistic or as the truth, then the next conclusion I would come to from what you say is that if you have the Holy Spirit in you, you can commit suicide and handle your issues like a carnal man?  Is this your point? This is not a judgment it is a question that arises out of this as a conclusion that perhaps you would like to defend or explain. I can not defend it or explain how a person can receive the Holy Spirit of Christ and then kill themselves. Also if you return to the teachings about salvation. Non are saved in this life time. Non are born again but some can recieve the Holy Spirit not in full but in part and there after the life of trial and testing and judgment occures as it did with Paul who ran and finished his race. Paul did not commit suicide either. Thy shalt not kill. Who are Gods children. Those who do the commands of Christ and will of the Father. Death is not the Will of the Father. Death is the last enemy that will be conquered.

You say of Judas that :   Jesus kept him like the others until the devil entered him.


That is NOT what Jesus said to God feat. Jesus did not say to God that He had kept all until Satan entered Judas. Was Satan more powerful than God? Could Jesus not have done anything for Judas to prevent Satan from possessing him? Did Jesus not KNOW at the supper who was going to betray Him? Did not Jesus KNOW why He came to the earth and exactly what would happen? Was He not aware of His destiny and Reason and Purpose and Plan of His Father even as a child when He told His parents that He was about His Fathers business?

No feat. I can not believe that Judas was at the last moment let go by Jesus and that Judas was pulled straight by God imposing on him his horrible way out of his treachery, cowardace that no doubt was his spiritually weak nature that for me must have continued to be all through out his life that culminated in his self annihilation and murder turned on himself. Show me a scripture that proves this is in error. Show me where Jesus said to God that He lost hold of Judas and that Judas was not from the beginning and to fulfill the scriptures, the betrayer.  I believe Judas was hardened and spiritually weak and blind and had the literal experience of walking with God's Son yet being deaf and blind to His Truth Judas thought as a man, acted as a man and died as a man...a carnal man. Jesus thought as God acted like God and died like God and that is the expression of the Holy Spirit, not Judas and the way Judas died.

Jesus did not commit suicide to lay down His life and not use His Power to stay alive. Judas did not lay down his life he took it himself.

Judas will finally come to see this and know this and repent and be saved but I do not think or see or believe he caught on as he hung himself and took his last breath and I do not believe Judas will experience deliverance until he is woken again by Jesus wherein he will receive his real education in righteousness and judgment at the White Throne Judgement.

Have we not been told that it is by their fruits you shall know them?

These thoughts are MY thoughts and if you see them as judgment or opinion then what can I do and what can I say... they are not....they are my thoughts and I am happy to share them. They did come about because of your post so thanks.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

sansmile:
Hi all,

Sorry if this has been said before but in a hurry >:(

But Judas could NOT have had the HS in him, because Christ had not yet rose to the FATHER. The comforter was sent after His resurrection. I may be wrong but i thought ...... or am i assuming that Judas died before Christs resurrection.

God Bless
Sandie

ciy:
I think the main point about Judas is the spiritual aspect of the word.  The parable that we are all judas at some point in our lives.  That we all betray Christ and that we all crucify him.  When he realized what he had done and that he had crucified Christ, he could not handle it and committed suicide.  

When we realize that we have crucified Christ, we too will kill the old man.  We do it just like Judas because we consider the wisdom of the world.  By the wisdom of the world it can make sense to turn this man over to the authorities and collect a reward.  And so we do the same as we daily do what Martha did in busying herself with worldly matters instead of giving up the world and sitting at Jesus' feet like Mary did.  She "chose the good part, which shall not be taken away from her."

Everything in the Word is spiritual and it is all a parable about us.  
God is awesome.
CIY
PS - Anyone dying prior to Jesus' death and resurrection could not have the holy spirit to my understanding.

Harryfeat:

--- Quote from: Arcturus on October 07, 2007, 01:48:17 PM ---Hello feat

You ask : how do we know that the extreme mental agony which drove him to madness and suicide was not his LOF. We all sin.  We are hopefully going through our LOF in this life.  

I do not believe that a tormenting end to life is the fix for a life time of rebellion and ungodliness. I do not believe that God instills His Spirit of Wisdom, Knowledge, Council, Understanding, Power and Love, without fruit.

To say or believe or teach that God terminates life in a anguished and horrible way as a means for us to avoid repentance, separation from sin and finally sanctification and through judgment righteousness, is to say, for me, that God is a terrorist and forces through pain, our submission and servitude to Him. That for me is heresy. God is a God of freedom not bondage.

On the surface, this assumption that pain in the last phase of life is Gods way of ending our sins and changing our souls is without substance or support of the Scriptures as I understand this. I do concure that it is a temptation to think that the suffering that some endure in the end of their lives is judgement but I also see that the scriptures also say as you sow so you reap. If we reap bad does that mean we learn good?

For me, Jesus did not pray for Judas. Judas was destined for destruction. The children of God are not going to experience the wrath of God. That's Gods Word.   It is fact not fiction. It is Truth not deception. It is the way of God not man. It is how God has expressed Himself through His Word and this is either received or rejected depending on which way we see is wiser, holier or better suited to us.

I did not make false accusations. I answered your post. Indeed I did miss that you had quoted John 17 : 12 but let me ask you, Why do you consider John 17 : 12 as you say as "damaging evidence to consider "? I do not find the word of God damaging evidence but enlightening instruction.

You say regarding John 17 : 12 I didn't discern from those verses that Judas did not receive the Holy Spirit before his death.

Let me understand this. So if I am to take what you say above as realistic or as the truth, then the next conclusion I would come to from what you say is that if you have the Holy Spirit in you, you can commit suicide and handle your issues like a carnal man?  Is this your point? This is not a judgment it is a question that arises out of this as a conclusion that perhaps you would like to defend or explain. I can not defend it or explain how a person can receive the Holy Spirit of Christ and then kill themselves. Also if you return to the teachings about salvation. Non are saved in this life time. Non are born again but some can recieve the Holy Spirit not in full but in part and there after the life of trial and testing and judgment occures as it did with Paul who ran and finished his race. Paul did not commit suicide either. Thy shalt not kill. Who are Gods children. Those who do the commands of Christ and will of the Father. Death is not the Will of the Father. Death is the last enemy that will be conquered.

You say of Judas that :   Jesus kept him like the others until the devil entered him.


That is NOT what Jesus said to God feat. Jesus did not say to God that He had kept all until Satan entered Judas. Was Satan more powerful than God? Could Jesus not have done anything for Judas to prevent Satan from possessing him? Did Jesus not KNOW at the supper who was going to betray Him? Did not Jesus KNOW why He came to the earth and exactly what would happen? Was He not aware of His destiny and Reason and Purpose and Plan of His Father even as a child when He told His parents that He was about His Fathers business?

No feat. I can not believe that Judas was at the last moment let go by Jesus and that Judas was pulled straight by God imposing on him his horrible way out of his treachery, cowardace that no doubt was his spiritually weak nature that for me must have continued to be all through out his life that culminated in his self annihilation and murder turned on himself. Show me a scripture that proves this is in error. Show me where Jesus said to God that He lost hold of Judas and that Judas was not from the beginning and to fulfill the scriptures, the betrayer.  I believe Judas was hardened and spiritually weak and blind and had the literal experience of walking with God's Son yet being deaf and blind to His Truth Judas thought as a man, acted as a man and died as a man...a carnal man. Jesus thought as God acted like God and died like God and that is the expression of the Holy Spirit, not Judas and the way Judas died.

Jesus did not commit suicide to lay down His life and not use His Power to stay alive. Judas did not lay down his life he took it himself.

Judas will finally come to see this and know this and repent and be saved but I do not think or see or believe he caught on as he hung himself and took his last breath and I do not believe Judas will experience deliverance until he is woken again by Jesus wherein he will receive his real education in righteousness and judgment at the White Throne Judgement.

Have we not been told that it is by their fruits you shall know them?

These thoughts are MY thoughts and if you see them as judgment or opinion then what can I do and what can I say... they are not....they are my thoughts and I am happy to share them. They did come about because of your post so thanks.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

--- End quote ---
Hello again Arcturus,

As I said before, you might very well be right in all you opinions.  I have no real solid evidence that they are wrong.  Neither do I believe your opinions are indeed fact. There is also the general belief that anyone who died before Christ could not have the Holy Spirit in them.  The scripture telling us about John the Baptist being lesser in the kingdom sort of supports that. I think that maybe not everything is as cut and dried as that  would lead us to believe. I am a skeptic, what can I say. [BTW which apostle is the twelfth throne for in your opinion? see my prior posts.]

Having said that,   I thought what you had to say when I read it the first time was well thought out and had scriptural support for your interpretations. I didn't see it as definitve proof but certainly persuasive.  In  a courtroom you would probably win the case that Judas will probably be thrown into the lake of fire [LOF].  However, as we know, there are many cases of innocent men found guilty.  When I said my evidence was damaging, I meant to the carnal case of law where we are judging whether Judas will be an "early riser"

There are a couple of points which I find  need addressing though I am not sure this is the place.

--- Quote ---I did not make false accusations.
--- End quote ---
You did indeed falsely accuse me of omitting john 17:12.  You were so eager to counter my post that you didn't even bother to understand it.  I would be impossible to miss the intent of the verses I posted if you were truly reading my post for understanding my point of view.  You can deny this all you want but is there for all to see.  It is one of several bullying tactics that you use which I find difficult to deal with.  This is one of several reasons why  I am reluctant to discuss topics with you.


--- Quote ---I do not believe that a tormenting end to life is the fix for a life time of rebellion and ungodliness. I do not believe that God instills His Spirit of Wisdom, Knowledge, Council, Understanding, Power and Love, without fruit.
--- End quote ---
I completely agree.  However, let's review Judas situation.  If he had indeed lived a lifetime of rebellion and ungodliness, how would he come to be a follower of the Christ.  Indeed,  if as you say Judas was a total reprobate, how did he come to have extreme feelings of remorse? Where did this torment come from lest it be through the grace of God.  Is the the Holy Spirit that causes a change in our hearts to recognize our transgressions and feel remorse.  If not then how does it happen?
What happens to our minds when we experience extreme cases of euphoria or the other extreme depression and  self torment?    I can't answer for either case. 
You seem to think that Judas suicide was a willful act of a sane man who was acting against the will of God.  What if he was in such a state of torment and depression that his thoughts were not logical at all.  The courts have a legal plea of temporary insanity. Whatever happened it was God's will that was done.  Jesus will be the judge.



--- Quote ---To say or believe or teach that God terminates life in a anguished and horrible way as a means for us to avoid repentance, separation from sin and finally sanctification and through judgment righteousness, is to say, for me, that God is a terrorist and forces through pain, our submission and servitude to Him. That for me is heresy. God is a God of freedom not bondage.

--- End quote ---
I neither said that nor believe it to be true. It is a heresy invented in your own mind.  You present a straw man argument you invented in an attempt to insinuate that I am a heretic.  Another of your bully techniques.


--- Quote ---On the surface, this assumption that pain in the last phase of life is Gods way of ending our sins and changing our souls is without substance or support of the Scriptures as I understand this. I do concur that it is a temptation to think that the suffering that some endure in the end of their lives is judgment but I also see that the scriptures also say as you sow so you reap. If we reap bad does that mean we learn good?
--- End quote ---
I agree that it is not the expected norm as shown by
 scripture.  On the other hand neither was Judas.  Just what exactly do you think the LOF will be? What is this torment that is to be endured?


--- Quote ---For me, Jesus did not pray for Judas. Judas was destined for destruction. The children of God are not going to experience the wrath of God. That's Gods Word.   It is fact not fiction. It is Truth not deception. It is the way of God not man. It is how God has expressed Himself through His Word and this is either received or rejected depending on which way we see is wiser, holier or better suited to us.
--- End quote ---
I agree that Jesus prayer appears to be for those apostle "left in the world." However, when I read the first parts of John17, Jesus did not exclude Judas until the point where He said He kept them all safe except one.  Of course Jesus knew of the events to occur.  As I read it, Judas was a chosen one who fell, then felt guilt, got remorseful through God's grace and help of the Holy Spirit, then being weak  he was he became extremely tormented by his guilt and went insane. 

All I am saying is that I don't know how Jesus will deal with the insane. I don't think it is necessarily a ticket to escape LOF.


--- Quote ---Let me understand this. So if I am to take what you say above as realistic or as the truth, then the next conclusion I would come to from what you say is that if you have the Holy Spirit in you, you can commit suicide and handle your issues like a carnal man?  Is this your point?
--- End quote ---
Your conclusion is erroneous and no that is not my point as I have previously pointed out.

--- Quote ---This is not a judgment it is a question that arises out of this as a conclusion that perhaps you would like to defend or explain. I can not defend it or explain how a person can receive the Holy Spirit of Christ and then kill themselves.
--- End quote ---
It is your conclusion not mine.  You seem to think that there has to be some demonstrable fruit for you to see rather that spiritual realizations on Judas part that allow him to see his error. We do not know his heart or mind as God does. You probably have not met many people with mutliple personalities or extreme cases of bipolar dysfunction.  I am not saying Judas had these problems but am only using them as an example of how the mind can become unstable.



--- Quote ---Non are saved in this life time. Non are born again but some can recieve the Holy Spirit not in full but in part and there after the life of trial and testing and judgment occures as it did with Paul who ran and finished his race. Paul did not commit suicide either. Thy shalt not kill. Who are Gods children. Those who do the commands of Christ and will of the Father. Death is not the Will of the Father. Death is the last enemy that will be conquered. 
--- End quote ---
Paul is a fairly good example of a sort of betrayal then God called him.  Judas was an example of God called him and he betrayed.  I don't think that the end results clearly speak to whether Judas thought that he had to kill himself for his crime or Paul's martyrdom are even comparable. I gIve you there verses to consider along with your own.2Co 5:10  [ESV}For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. ...and...
2Co 5:19  that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

--- Quote ---Have we not been told that it is by their fruits you shall know them?
--- End quote ---
Yes we have and it certainly is evident in a lot of cases.



--- Quote ---These thoughts are MY thoughts and if you see them as judgment or opinion then what can I do and what can I say... they are not....they are my thoughts and I am happy to share them. They did come about because of your post so thanks.
--- End quote ---
I definitely understand that Arcturus, and I accept them in the spirit given.

I don't really have much else to say about this other than I don't see things as black as and as white as I get the impression you do. I hope I have addressed all that you wished me to comment on.

be blessed
feat

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