Forgive them father

[sonofone]

This scripture Luke 23 vs 34, came across my mind today and I wanted to share some of what spoke to me. Jesus asked God to forgive those who demanded his crucifixion.Wasn't this same Jesus not many chapters before this ripping the Pharisees a new one for killing the prophets?Matthew 23 vs 29-36.It would seem to me that this forgiveness that Jesus asked God for was all inclusive,that is to include the Pharisees and such.If this is true,as I suppose it is. Is it fair to say that Jesus was never really angry with them? I could be wrong here,but I'm starting to see this anger of the lord a little differently in light of this. It appears that Jesus was acknowledging the fact that they were just doing what they knew to do. Even Stephen when he was being martyred prayed the same prayer. Acts 7 vs 60. I've been doing some thinking all day today,and I keep getting that God has given to everyman a certain portion of his light,IE truth. It is the lords doing Matthew 13 vs 10-11Matthew 11 vs 25-26,There are still conflicting scriptures to deal with as well,but for now I'm looking at what has come to me today.God's sovereign will being carried out in this world.I just see God's plan for the elect. That seems to be God's only goal for this lifetime. It seems to me that God is only interested in raising up an elect group of people,just like a fisherman that selects the fish that he wants and discards the others. I know everyone here believes that God will save all,I am not even attempting to dig into that right now.It just appears to me that this lifetime is about the election,and everyone else is just a pawn of sorts to help bring the elect forth? Any thoughts?

[rocky]

Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

and in thy seed (the elect) all families of the earth will be blessed.


blessed:

H1288
בּרך
bârak
baw-rak'
A primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason): -  X abundantly, X altogether, X at all, blaspheme, bless, congratulate, curse, X greatly, X indeed, kneel (down), praise, salute, X still, thank.


every knee will bow, ......

[rocky]

Something i've been thinking about in regards to "forgive them for they know not what they do"

this sounds like ignorance.  forgiven if ignorant.  but;

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Gal 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 4:9  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


those referred to in the above scriptures, definitely are not ignorant. 

don't know if there is a connection but been thinking about that.


also, along the lines of Adam and Eve,

Eve was deceived (ignorant)

Adam was not deceived (enlightened, aware )

[rocky]

It would seem to me that this forgiveness that Jesus asked God for was all inclusive,that is to include the Pharisees and such.If this is true,as I suppose it is. Is it fair to say that Jesus was never really angry with them? I could be wrong here,but I'm starting to see this anger of the lord a little differently in light of this.

Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

[Gregor]

Greetings,
Very interesting topic, this thing called forgiveness. Here's a couple verses to consider in your ponderings:

Mat. 5:43-48
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
[46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
[47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
[48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mat. 6:14,15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

The pharasees believed, as do many christians, that only God can forgive sins (See Mark 2:7), yet we are commanded to forgive one another. Why? I believe that Mt. 16:19 gives a clue.

I don't know what more to say at the moment, but I do think this time/age is the testing of our faith.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

I believe the above teaching fits with this topic. Our circumstances are caused by God to bring us into the knowledge of good and evil.

Forgiveness is good. Discernment is good. Repentance is good. And there are non who are good except God and THAT IS GOOD!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[sonofone]

Is it me, or does it seem to all that the bible leads to several paths of understanding? Even in this one post where I pose the point of what Jesus said about forgiveness,and the conclusion I am drawing concerning the elect. Jesus told the pharisees to search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life.The parables that Jesus taught seem to be an perfect example of this as well.I guess what I am getting at is this .God holds the answers to all truths. It is his good pleasure to reveal them unto babes,or to those he desires to.Everyone who searches the scripture can get a little light,but the true light is only revealed by God,which takes me back to the elect.It seems that only the elect will be given this true light,if that be the case,everyone else has the portion of light that God has chosen to give them.Second Peter 1 vs 20 Knowing this first,that no PROPHECHY,of the scripture is of any private interpretation. You have no idea how many times I have heard this scripture misapplied,and I am sure you all have as well.Most will say that the bible says that SCRIPTURE is of no private interpretation. Meaning that all scripture can only lead to one revealed truth accepted by all.I don't believe that this particular scripture supports this view at all.If I have not made my point clear,please let me know.If you can see where I am going with my point but find that I am off base please let me know. I can take it. Thanks

[Deborah-Leigh]

 Sonofone you comment :..... all scripture can only lead to one revealed truth accepted by all.

This made me think about that time when everyone believed the earth was flat that shows that popular approval or agreement does not mean that the truth is known. Much like Babylon. They all agree approve and they do not know God or His Power. They reject God's Sovereignty applaud hell and endorse free will.

For me the Truth of the Word of God is Truth whether or not mankind understands, comprehends or thinks he has the insight to perceive, teach or reveal the thoughts and ways of God or not.

I believe that  human nature is an arrogant, shallow, violent, self righteous force of negativity. God is good and His ways are not our ways until and unless God conforms us, changes us and brings us to become like His Son through His Spirit.

The insights and teaching we have here in Bible Truths gives us the gift to come to know God and His Son through the study and application of our minds and by Grace the revelation of His ways will be shown to us bit by bit.....No quick fix! God controls all and if He wants a quick fix as happened to Saul, then even that might lead to a very hard life of buffeting before completion. 

To even integrate and fully accept and work from some of the truths shown in the teachings of LOF for example, require a total reevaluation of our entire lives that have lived off false teachings and lies.

For me Bible Truths is like climbing up Mount Zion! Though a literal mountain might have many paths that can lead to the top we know that God does not compromise His Truth and that there is only one way for us to come to God and that is through Jesus Christ the Word. The light of God's Wisdom and Truth is  revealed and expounded here through the teachings received by Ray Smith and given to us through this site.

Here is just one point on the subject of interpretation of the Scriptures that I believe shows that the Truth is not a mole hill but for me is like the Mountain of Zion we are being caused to climb.  : http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

TRUTH NUMBER 9

[A] "Knowing this first, that no prophecy [inspired writing or speaking] of the Scripture is of any private [Gk: 'its OWN'] interpretation" (II Pet. 1:20).

"To understand a proverb, AND THE INTERPRETATION [or 'puzzle'—the proverb itself is not also the interpretation]..." (Prov. 1:6).

[C] "Are you able to make known unto me THE DREAM which I have seen, AND THE INTERPRETATION thereof [the dream does not interpret itself]?" (Dan. 2:26).

"Own" is a little closer to the Greek in this verse than is the word "private." A few examples of how the Greek word, idios, is used in other Scriptures will show this more clearly. In a few cases it should be translated "private," as in, "...the disciples came unto Him privately" (Matt. 24:3). But more than 70 times it is translated "own" as in:

Matt. 9:1 "...and came into his own city [Gk: idios—not 'private' city]."

John 4:44 "...has honor in his own country [Gk: idios—not "private' country]."

I Pet. 3:5 "...unto their own husbands [Gk: idios—not their 'private' husbands]."

Why is no Scripture its OWN interpretation, we might ask? To protect the integrity of the Scriptures, for one thing. ALL twelve of these spiritual principles are to be used together in explaining the Scriptures. If every Scripture or even any Scripture can be its "own interpretation," then we wouldn't need the other eleven principles. How can a Scripture be its own interpretation when we are told to "compare or MATCH spiritual with spiritual?" One standing alone cannot at the same time be a match to something else. Why then the need for "TWO witnesses" if each Scripture fully interprets itself? No, every one of the principles that I am presenting is of paramount importance.

In our last example on the judgments by fire (I Cor. 3 and Rev. 20), it was absolutely necessary to have not only two witnesses, but to match one spiritual teaching with another spiritual teaching in order to arrive at the truth. You see, neither Scripture by itself, fully explains God's "judgments by fire." From I Cor. 3 orthodoxy will concede that the fire is figurative, spiritual, symbolic, and that the believers that go through this fire WILL BE SAVED BY IT. But this same orthodoxy (because they refuse to obey this commandment of God's Scripture) conclude that the lake of fire of Rev. 20, is not symbolic, even though the whole book is "signified" (Rev. 1:1), which is "symbolized." They say that this fire is literal, and that those that go through it will never be saved.

Now then, does it say that those thrown into the lake of fire are NEVER SAVED? NO. Does it say that this is LITERAL fire? NO. Does it say that it will last for all ETERNITY? NO (See my paper: "Is EVERLASTING Scriptural" for proof of this. "For ever and ever" is not a translation of Rev. 20:10. "aions of the aions" does not translate into "ever and ever."

King James turns the NOUN "aions" into an ADJECTIVE "ever."

King James changes a PLURAL "aionS" into a SINGULAR "ever."

King James drops the GENITIVE "of." (Taking FROM the word of God).

King James inserts the CONJUNCTIVE "and." (Adding TO the word of God).

They again change the PLURAL NOUN "aions" into a SINGULAR ADJECTIVE "ever"

They break FIVE LAWS OF GRAMMAR IN JUST THREE WORDS! And Christendom then calls this verse "INERRANT." Unbelievable. UNBELIEVABLE!

Theologians and preachers despise this simple and unassailable Scriptural logic and truth.

Here is a simple example as to why no Scripture is its OWN interpretation. I am asked about once a week the following question: If dead people are really dead as you say {actually, I quote SCRIPTURE when I say that, so it is really GOD saying it, not I], then how was it that Moses and Elijah appeared alive with Christ on the mount? Let's read it:

"And after six days Jesus takes Peter, James, and John his brother, and brings them up into an high mountain apart, and was transfigured before them: and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with Him" (Matt. 17:1-3).

Now then, since most theologians refuse to follow the commandments of God, they do conclude that this verse is its OWN interpretation, and therefore what you see is what you get—Elijah and Moses are still alive in heaven, or some place. To them this Scripture is its OWN interpretation; they don't need a SECOND witness; they don't need to compare SPIRITUAL WITH SPIRITUAL; they don't need to be sure this Scripture MATCHES other Scriptures. Hence, break the commandments of God and they teach heresy.

The preachers and theologians of Christendom ARE the Scribes and Pharisees, Elders, the Chief priests of today's Church. And what was their attitude back then with regards to following the commandments of God with regard to having more than one witness, etc.?

"And as soon as it was day, the ELDERS, of the people and the CHIEF PRIESTS and the SCRIBES came together and led Him into their council... Then said they all, 'Are You then the Son of God?' And He said unto them, 'You say that I am.' And they said, WHAT NEED WE ANY FURTHER WITNESS?..." (Luke 22:66, 70-71).

Yes, indeed, "What NEED have we of any further witness?" Here's why we need to follow the commandments of God. Just one additional Scripture witness will solve this Christian heresy that dead people are still alive. Here it is:

"And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the VISION [the vision they just had in verses 1-3 if Elijah and Moses appearing as if they were alive] to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead " (Matt. 17:9).

It was all a VISION! It never "literally" happened anymore than your dreams are literal. The Scripture says "two or THREE witnesses," so lets throw in a third just to put this whole issue out of the reach of the heretics. Are Elijah and Moses still alive? Did they receive their promises and go to heaven. Are they now in heaven?

Turn to Hebrews 11. Although Elijah is not mentioned by name in this chapter, he is, nonetheless, included, as he certainly was "...OF the PROPHETS" (Verse 32). What do the Scriptures say regarding the present condition of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham & Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and the prophets, of whom Elijah was one? Are they alive today? Did they receive the promises. Are they in heaven? Hold on, cause I'm about to knock your socks off:

"These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES... For they that say such things declare plainly that they SEEK a country... they DESIRE a better country, that is a HEAVENLY... And ALL THESE, having obtained a good report through faith, [here comes the second witness that they are dead and not in heaven]... RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: God having provided something better thing FOR US, that THEY without US should NOT BE MADE [future tense, not past tense—it hasn't happened YET] perfect" (Verses 13-14, 16, 39-40).

WOW!

I would venture to say that not a thousand people alive on earth today have ever seen or had the above Scripture explained to them. Yet this Scripture is in perfect harmony with ALL other Scripture, but TOTALLY CONTRADICTS ALL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

ALL of the men and women of faith, the fathers, the patriarchs, and prophets are DEAD.

ALL of them died "looking for a country & home afar off," which they never received.

ALL these received a "good report," but they received NO PROMISES.

ALL these "desired a heavenly" home, but they NEVER RECEIVED IT.

ALL these will remain dead until WE are given OUR promises.

OUR promise is better: "God having provided some BETTER THING FOR US."

WE are to become "perfect" Col. 4:12; Eph. 4:13; Gal. 3:3; Phil. 3:15; Col. 1:28; etc,

WE are to become "perfect" BEFORE the saints of old; BEFORE Moses & Elijah.

THEY are not only made perfect AFTER us, but are made perfect THROUGH US!

Not even John the Baptist is as great as the very least in the Kingdom of God (Matt. 11:11).

Grace was not given to save the saints of old. Grace came by JESUS CHRIST, not by Moses, neither to nor for Moses (John 1:17). Hebrews 11, speaking of ALL the saints that were before us clearly declares that, " for they without [Gk: 'apart from'] US should NOT be made perfect [or 'complete'].

Hebrews was written at least a whole generation after the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord, and at that time the saints of old had not yet received their promises, so guess what? They are all still dead in their graves awaiting the Second Resurrection, as they cannot be made perfect or complete except through those who come up in the First resurrection. And no one is ever made "complete" except through Jesus Christ (Col. 2:10).

Have you not read:

"Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto US ['Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples, and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the eons are come' I Cor. 10:11] they did minister the things, which are now reported unto YOU by them that have preached the gospel unto YOU with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of YOUR mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the GRACE that is to be brought unto YOU [not 'them'—they DIED not receiving the promises made to them] at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:12-13).

Jesus Christ is the "wave sheaf" and the "firstfruit," but the saints and patriarchs of old were not "firstfruits" at all. Jesus, not they, was the FIRST of the firstfruitst" (I Cor. 15:20& 23), and WE, not they, are also "firstfruits" (James 1:18 & Rev. 14:4). When will we believe the Scriptures? The FIRST to be called will be the LAST TO BE SAVED, and the LAST to be called will be the FIRST TO BE SAVED (Matt. 19:30 and 20:16). My, what we can learn when we begin to obey the commandments of GOD.

All Scripture is inspired, and all Scripture is true, but no one Scripture fully explains and interprets itself. Remember that should someone wants to show you from "a" single Scripture that there is no end to the lake of fire, for example.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[insanezenmistress]

       Jesus asked God to forgive those who demanded his crucifixion.  Wasn't this same Jesus not many chapters before this ripping the Pharisees a new one for killing the prophets?
        It would seem to me that this forgiveness that Jesus asked God for was all inclusive,that is to include the Pharisees and such.  If this is true,as I suppose it is. Is it fair to say that Jesus was never really angry with them?

      I could be wrong here,but I'm starting to see this anger of the lord a little differently in light of this. I just see God's plan for the elect. That seems to be God's only goal for this lifetime. It seems to me that God is only interested in raising up an elect group of people,just like a fisherman that selects the fish that he wants and discards the others.
      I know everyone here believes that God will save all,I am not even attempting to dig into that right now.It just appears to me that this lifetime is about the election,and everyone else is just a pawn of sorts to help bring the elect forth? Any thoughts?

I think Jesus was makeing a sad prediction about what they did to teh Prophets.....He knows they have rejected him also, it is our nature. When ever i see jesus' anger i see a broken heart, and love even tough love.....and Pain.

It is no so much that Jesus is picking whom to accept and reject. SOme say, that he lets the wheat grow up with the tares....no one is a  pawn. We are all growing up, some are wheat some a tares, tares can be woven into baskets to carry the wheat ...........

hum........sorry i went off into parable land there..........

God is interested in knowing each of us, to be our god. And he will have been all our "god's" by the time we ALL realise Him............whats all that mean....

it means, even what you call a tare will eventaully have learned it IS also turned in to wheat by the Fire.....


well thems my thinks on that.

[sonofone]

Eve was the woman that birthed humanity,from her seed came Mary who birthed the savior.From his seed came the church which births spiritual humanity. In every case the seed is Holy and the Mother sinful.Eve was sinful and she birthed the Holy seed Jesus, through Mary.Jesus seed is birthed through the church which as we have pointed out is not Holy yet it births the elect,the Holy seed of God.My point that I raise is that all of us come forth from this sinful,unholy woman.This woman is birthing children,some of great promise,Abraham,Elijah,Moses,John the Baptist,finally Jesus the Holy seed.This woman is also birthing sons of wrath,Cain,Jezebel,Pharaoh,Pharisees,Modern day preachers,teachers who subvert the truth of God,and even well intended followers. In the end from this church, or woman,just like in Eve, will come the Holy seed, the elect.  All others are like pawn,needful to help the elect get to the King!

[skydreamers]

In my study of spurious passages a few months ago I discovered that Luke 23:34 apparently did not appear in the earliest manuscripts.  So there are scholars who consider this verse spurious. 

Here's what one site had to say about it:

• 1966/76: Did Jesus say: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" while he was being executed? Well, a footnote to Luke 23:34 in the Good News Bible, Today's English Version reads: "Some manuscripts do not have Jesus said, 'Forgive them, Father! They don't know what they are doing'." (page N.T. 115). It is also bracketed as doubtful in The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, 1969, New World Bible Translation Committee, New York, p 407.
   If it is an insertion, the purpose would be to help in altering the realistic, balanced, "sin no more" Jesus into the "ever-forgiving Jesus" image that saved the Church leaders for centuries from having to routinely expel serious wrongdoers and dangerous men of violence, and allows them to "forgive" themselves for child sex abuse! -- Religion Clarity Campaign, July 2003, revised February 2004. -- Check Good News New Testament, Bible Society in Australia © 1966, Canberra, 4th edition, 1976, p 227.

http://www.multiline.com.au/~johnm/religion/spurious.htm

See also:

http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=-Q9EAilSY_0C&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=luke+%2223+34%22+spurious&source=web&ots=hBOmQArsdc&sig=z2sehot61O8srcVCU8KJDuToce8

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/oncross.htm

Of course, this doesn't necessarily change much since we have other passages of forgiveness shown by Jesus.  But it is disconcerting and confusing to trust which passages are real and which were inserted by church scribes with their own agendas.

Peace,
Diana

[sonofone]

I can see why people would want to call this scripture spurious,or claim it was not what Jesus said. But what about Stephen he said the same thing as he was being stoned? The fact of the matter is that blindness was caused in  in part by God Romans 11 vs 8 According as it is written,God hath given them the spirit of slumber,eyes that they should not see,and ears that they should not hear unto this day. They did not know what they were doing.They thought they were getting rid of a heretic,an impostor.Even so the church wants no part of the elect,even Paul was persecuted for the revelation that God gave him.This persecution came from within,not without.Romans 11 vs 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election has obtained it,and the rest were blinded

[Deborah-Leigh]

And why did God give them over to their vile affections and degrading passions? Because they were without understanding, conscienceless, faithless, heartless, merciless and loveless.

For me this pretty much describes the Beast or the natural man or the weak spiritual condition we need experience and come to know and comprehend before we are delivered by His Spirit to repentance and then conformation to His image and likeness rather than the image and likeness of the Beast within.

I enjoyed what you observed sonofone : This persecution came from within,not without.

Peace to you

Arcturus