We Can Only Experience

[hillsbororiver]

It is a fact that we can only experience the things that God puts in our path, we do not accomplish anything of ourselves, I know this seems rather basic but seeing this repeated so often throughout the Old and New Testament it amazes me that virtually all Christiandom believes man himself needs to choose and come to Him rather than He chooses and comes to us to complete His work.

Exo 34:10  And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

Terrible to our flesh yet glorious to our spirit, I still find it incredible and at the same time humbling that the Creator and Source of all power and life would take an interest in such an insignificant player in the scheme of the world such as myself.

Ecc 7:13  Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Once again the fallacy of "free will" is demolished, who has the power within themselves to change what God has ordained?

Ecc 8:17  Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labor to seek it out,  yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.

When we believe we of ourselves can know or figure out what His plan and purpose for us we are then doomed to failure, understanding that He will open our spiritual eyes and ears in His good time requires a faith that again can only come from above.

Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Joe,

Once you have been set free by the truth, it is odd to think they can't see the obvious, that we have no free-will.  But it is true the whole world believes we have a free-will, because they are deceived. 

Titus 3:3  "For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived..."

Rev 18:2  And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great has fallen, has fallen!....v. 23 For your merchants were the great ones of the earth; for by your sorceries all nations were deceived.

For the few God is revealing the truth that He controls all things and man has no free-will.  Still it is hard concept to fully comprehend that He causes everything, directly or indirectly.

Pro 16:9  The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Eph 1:11  In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
v. 12  so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory.

It's all to His glory, but we will recieve tremendous benefits from the work He will accomplish.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

[quote author=hillsbororiver

Exo 34:10  And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

  Thanks Joe,   By the way I noticed in regard to the word terrible. Consulting the Strong's Concordance for additional meanings we find the following.

Strongs # 3372  "fear"  and also "to revere"

Meaning #2 = Used of a person in an exalted position, yare' connotes "standing in awe".  This is not simple fear, but reverence, whereby an individual recognizes the power and position of the individual revered and renders him proper respect."

It could also demonstrate what God is going to do with us and that what God does will inspire respect.  Not respect just for us, but respect for what God can do with the lowliest of persons such as us.

I sometimes reflect that when my relatives and friends see me in the Kingdom that they will not recognize me as anyone they have ever known.  At least not until I have been reintroduced to them.  It will truly be a miracle, when they believe.

Indianabob

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


[/quote]

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Kat,

Thanks for the additions you made to this thread, indeed the whole world is deceived by this concept of free will, but in reality is anything on this earth really free at all? In any sense? I have come to the conclusion the word "free" itself is deceptive.

Earlier today at lunch I saw a "buy one, get one free" ad for a coupon book that gives the holder 2 lunches or dinners for the price of one (as long as you pay for the more expensive selection). First you have to buy the coupon book and then pay for a lunch (or dinner) then you get one "free." What is so free about that? Sure, you get a better price but hardly free.

How about a free estimate, you don't pay for the estimate in dollars and cents but you sure do pay (in time and sometimes aggravation) once the sales pitch begins and when they get your address and phone number to follow up with.

Can anyone think of any earthly thing that is totally free? Without commitments, without consequences, without effort, without some sort of compromise or promise or action?

Jer 10:23  O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Now the concept of an uncaused thought or action seems so naive when at one time it seemed so basic and unquestionable.

God can close eyes every bit as effectively as He can open them!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

I sometimes reflect that when my relatives and friends see me in the Kingdom that they will not recognize me as anyone they have ever known. 

That goes double for me Brother!

Thank you for your contribution Bob, I like the definition of "terrible" you presented as it shows the trials and tribulations of this short time in the flesh accomplishes His purpose of teaching us reverence for Him and His Righteousness, ultimately making us perfect Sons and Daughters.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Joe

You say : we can only experience the things that God puts in our path, we do not accomplish anything of ourselves,........

As and when we truly GRASP this, I believe it is then and there that we enter into God's REST. What a hideous thing to remove from us this opportunity and door way to the Peace of Christ that is with held from millions of seekers who are being mislead to choose Christ and be born again!

This great harm and theft against anyone receiving the Truth,  is ALSO an experience that God is putting in the path of Babylon and her followers that will be revealed, repented and resolved because of God's MERCY. How wonderful is that! (Caps only show what is accentuated for me to my mind and is not meant as teaching preaching or high handedness at all)

I do not think that we can discuss nearly enough the value of this subject and topic. It deserves much consideration, discussion and reflection on a daily basis I believe! Thinking about how God is Sovereign is like coming off an hypnotic trans or stepping out of a coma! Slipping back is so easy to do.

Thanks for the post Joe.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

I sometimes reflect that when my relatives and friends see me in the Kingdom that they will not recognize me as anyone they have ever known. 

That goes double for me Brother!

Actually the first thoughts from old friends and family from years past will probably be gloom and doom (if and when) they see me because they most likely will assume they ended up in the wrong place!

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

I do not think that we can discuss nearly enough the value of this subject and topic. It deserves much consideration, discussion and reflection on a daily basis I believe! Thinking about how God is Sovereign is like coming off an hypnotic trans or stepping out of a coma! Slipping back is so easy to do.

A big Amen Sister!

This should be in the forefront of our minds as we journey through this strange place. Great post Arcturus.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[ciy]

This is a great thread that everyone needs to stop and really meditate on for a long time.  Joe, Kathy, Bob, and Arcturus have all made some separate and powerful points.  It is hard to really believe this even once you believe it.  I think this is like some drills in football that a player does throughout his career from high school to pros because they are so important and so basic.

I have been reading Ray for a couple of years now and I have continuously found myself reading the freewill sections over and over.  It is because until you get rid of all of those old traditions of the mind to believe then you have to fight the fight daily to understand it. When you have this truth and you see verses like

Proverbs 16:1 "The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD"

Then it dawns on you that the thoughts, experiences, personality traits, etc that goes into every conversation and deed is from the Lord  With some thought and meditation on it, you realize that it is impossible to be set free until you know in your heart that it is all from the Lord  God caused that thing you did in high school that you still regret, so stop regreting and start rejoicing because it was from the Lord and if it had not happened you would not be where you are right now and you had to be where you are right now in God's plan.

It really is so awesome (Bob, I think God is doing an awesime thing in us like you pointed out) to think that where it says in Hebrews that "they could not enter into God's rest because of their unbelief" is so true on at least 2 levels.  Of course God would not allow them to enter, but secondly He made it like a law.  If you have unbelief and cannot believe in the doctrines of Christ like God's sovereignty then it is humanly and spiritually impossible to rest.  When you think that your efforts direct your path then you are in bondage to the things of this world.  If you get to the place to where you know that you know that God is in complete control and He is working everything to the good then and only then can everything be joy.

I love this stuff. 
CIY

[YellowStone]

Hi Joe,

This is a great thread and your post sparked a few thoughts of my own, my comments in brown.

It is a fact that we can only experience the things that God puts in our path, we do not accomplish anything of ourselves, I know this seems rather basic but seeing this repeated so often throughout the Old and New Testament it amazes me that virtually all Christiandom believes man himself needs to choose and come to Him rather than He chooses and comes to us to complete His work.

This is so true, but I am not sure that the fact that so many get it wrong should be surprising, because, they have only they only have eys and ears to hear what has been given them to hear. As you say, man can do nothing on his own, the simple truth is if anyone believes such, God has yet to release his Spirit in a greater measure.

Mat 19:11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 



Exo 34:10  And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

Terrible to our flesh yet glorious to our spirit, I still find it incredible and at the same time humbling that the Creator and Source of all power and life would take an interest in such an insignificant player in the scheme of the world such as myself.

This is a tough one my friend, because I know how you feel. Yet this is the beauty and the simplicity of his love. It is unconditional and not earned. Quite a strange concept in this world.

Ecc 7:13  Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Once again the fallacy of "free will" is demolished, who has the power within themselves to change what God has ordained?

I could run with this but yes, it is not up to man to even direct his steps.

Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps. 

This must allude to your first comment, man can walk wherever he wants, but he will never find God, until God wants to be found.

Luk 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

This would seem to mean (at least to me) no matter how hard I study, analyze and meditate, I will not grow in favor or staure in God's eyes. Trust is the key here, trusting everything to him.


Ecc 8:17  Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labor to seek it out,  yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.

When we believe we of ourselves can know or figure out what His plan and purpose for us we are then doomed to failure, understanding that He will open our spiritual eyes and ears in His good time requires a faith that again can only come from above.

I agree with this 100%, but it is only half the story I feel. I think this subject fits very well with the folowing parable

Mat 25:14 For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Mat 25:15  And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Mat 25:16  Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made [them] other five talents.

Mat 25:17  And likewise he that [had received] two, he also gained other two.

Mat 25:18  But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

Mat 25:19  After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Mat 25:20  And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

Mat 25:21  His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Mat 25:22  He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

Mat 25:23  His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Mat 25:24  Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

Mat 25:25  And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.

Mat 25:26  His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Mat 25:27  Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Mat 25:28  Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.

Mat 25:29  For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

It would appear that those to whom much is given, much is also expected. Sometimes, it is hard knowing when to wait and when to search, but to do nothing is surely doom

Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

I have come to the point in my life that wasting time second guessing God is fruitless, it brings me no joy or peace of mind. My greatest comfort is when I listen with my heart and soul, and then act. The messages may be subtle and often overlooked, but I find with time they become very loud and clear.

Psa 23:4   Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

It all comes down to trust and nothing else.

Pro 3:5   Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6   In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct[fn1] your paths.


I hope this fits with what you intended ,

Love to you my brother
Darren

[hillsbororiver]

This is so true, but I am not sure that the fact that so many get it wrong should be surprising, because, they have only they only have eyes and ears to hear what has been given them to hear. As you say, man can do nothing on his own, the simple truth is if anyone believes such, God has yet to release his Spirit in a greater measure.

Hi Darren,

Not really surprised but amazed;

It is a fact that we can only experience the things that God puts in our path, we do not accomplish anything of ourselves, I know this seems rather basic but seeing this repeated so often throughout the Old and New Testament it amazes me that virtually all Christiandom believes man himself needs to choose and come to Him rather than He chooses and comes to us to complete His work.

It isn't some sort of culture shock or being aghast at what others believe or questioning the wisdom they have been given, rather I am amazed that I could be so fortunate to have been exposed to the real Gospel. I had nothing to do with it. It was a gift.

Other than with people that have ulterior motives I really do not have a problem with folks that are sincere in questioning the articles here, or that are searching for answers to things that either trouble them or in things they feel are contradicting. We should all be as the Bereans, searching the Word on our own, to be sure the things being taught here line up with the Scriptures.

I have found it to be rewarding to read and reread the articles and as I do consult my Bible whether it be a hard copy or an on-line version and just read through entire chapters where Ray quotes his witnesses, then search throughout the chapter for other layers of Truth His Spirit is waiting to reveal to you/us.

Peace to you Brother,

Joe 

[YellowStone]

Hi Joe,

Here we go again, looking at the same thing from a different angle; both of us seeing beauty in a different light. Now I see where you were coming from

Yes it is a deeply humbling experience, realizing that one has done nothing in order to recieve all that has been given. What is even sometimes harder to grasp is realizing that there is much that can be given in return; not as payment or compensation but in honor. How can this be done, some may ask? Well it is by the Spirit that all truth and insight is given and effectively we become as branches on the tree of life. The Spirit produces fruit, how can it not? Carnal man must lose the "Me, Myself and I" totally and become as one with God, and not hold the Spirit as if it were a prized possesion, but rather let it free to breathe and bare all that it must. We cannot lead it, it MUST lead us.

How else are we to walk through the valley of the shadow of death and fear no evil?

Sometimes I am a bit dense Joe, I guess you have learned that by now.

Thanks for the update.

Love in Christ Brother,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Darren

The Spirit produces fruit....it must lead us....
How else are we to walk through the valley of the shadow of death and fear no evil?

This can also be applied to the other Scriptures under the same question how else are we to ....
Pro 3:5   Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6   In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct[fn1] your paths.

Zech 4 : 6 It is not by force nor by strength, but by My Spirit says the Lord Almighty.

I believe this can be applied to all the do's and don't we find in the Scriptures. We DO by His Spirit and we Don't by His Spirit.  This does not take away our accountability for our actions because our salvation is from God, by His Spirit and Will and is not of man's spirit or works. 

Rom 8:20 For the creature was subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope 21.because the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God

Peace to you

Arcturus

[DuluthGA]

Arcturus:

This does not take away our accountability for our actions because our salvation is from God,

I like this paragraph from Ray in Gehenna Fire Judgment to relate to the accountability factor:  [My emphasis in red] ... This is like, for an example:

And so when a man who is tempted to spend more time looking at a woman than he should, looking at her to lust after her, the Spirit of God will give him power to turn away.  God won't make you or force you to turn away, but He will give you the power to turn away, and then you have to do the turning.  And should you fail to turn away before you actually lust after her, then you must "pluck out your eye." No not your literal, physical organ of the body, but the lustful eye of your heart.

Eye opener!
Wake up call!
Can we have more grace please?
 

[Robin]

I was sitting on my porch this morning thinking and was reminded of a time many years ago when I believed all the church teachings. I remember being in my living room thinking about all the different religions and how everyone thought they knew the truth and really sincerely believed what they believed. At that time I was thinking of the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons and others I had been in contact with. I was thinking about how deceived they all were and suddenly thought I could also be deceived and not know it. I remember reading the verse about even the elect being deceived if that was possible. I thought well it is a possibility that I was deceived. I didn't really believe it at the time, but knew it was very possible. I started praying after that. God if I am deceived please let me know and show me the truth. I prayed that for many years because I knew it was possible.

Well it turned out that I was as deceived as anyone could be.

So once again this morning I humbled myself before the Lord and asked him to keep me from being deceived and asked him to keep me from being led astray. I was reminded of Ray's words about Judas being chosen, but not faithful until the end.

I was also reminded of this verse.

John 5

39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

I have been guilty many times of studying scripture as if it were a puzzle to be solved rather than keeping my eyes on Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life. Once again I was humbled this morning and had to repent.

The Lord has shown great mercy to all of us.

1 Timothy 1:16
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

1 Peter 2
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Romans 9
15For he says to Moses,
  "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
     and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

[Beloved]

Great thread, it is so important that we see as we really are...thank God that Jesus has opened our eys. Those who read the next scripture do not see it or believe it...except in the physical.

Exo 4:11 Yahweh said to him: Who make the mouth for a human or Who is making one mute or deaf or with eye unclosed or blind? Is it not I, Yahweh?

Yes Joe God certainly has terrible things in store for some

Zep 1:17 And I cause distress for humanity, and they go as the blind, for against Yahweh they sin. And their blood shall be poured out as soil, and their intestines as ordure."

We cannot take any of what we have been blessed with for granted less we too stumble

(Joh 9:39 WNT)  "I came into this world," said Jesus, "to judge men, that those who do not see may see, and that those who do see may become blind."

(Joh 9:40 WNT)  These words were heard by those of the Pharisees who were present, and they asked Him, "Are *we* also blind?"

(Joh 9:41 WNT)  "If you were blind," answered Jesus, "you would have no sin; but as a matter of fact you boast that you see. So your sin remains!"

I agree MG with your prayer to be kept until the end. Oh it has been a long hard journey, but oh the peace and joy even now.

Beloved.

[chav]

Hi
This is a very interesting thread , but isn't there a danger that we can become overly passive,by just accepting the fact that everything that happens in our life is from God (which it is of course) and being unable to change anything.
I have a number of issues in my life that perturb and worry me and I would like to see them changed , but perhaps I shouldn't bother to try to do anything about them because God is probably using them to shape and correct me, and any attempt on my part to change them would perhaps be relying on my own abilities or resisting the will of God.
Taking it to the extreme (I'm being very stupid here) if God allows sickness into our lives , should we go to the doctor ? No sensible person apart from some christians maybe would consider that as a reasonable position to adopt.
So how do we balance being accepting of what God allows in our life, without becoming overly passive and inactive.
Dave

[Kat]

Hi Dave,

So how do we balance being accepting of what God allows in our life, without becoming overly passive and inactive.

I can see the point you are making. 
We should always strive to do the best we can do in every situation, but if good things are accomplished, it is only by the grace of God.
Each and every one of us are doing and carrying out our own lives, of which we are accountable.  But it is all according to His will, some vessels of honor, some vessels of dishonor.  We should always be striving to be the vessels of honor.  Praying is a key element for sure.
Paul speaks of how we should be living as believers.

Phi 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Phi 2:13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Phi 2:14  Do all things without complaining and disputing,
Phi 2:15  that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

Col 1:10  that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11  strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy;
Col 1:12  giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[chav]

Thanks Kat
That has made things a bit clearer now
Dave UK

[dessa]

This thought occurred to me:  Our will is not free but we do have choices.  God permits us to choose and when my choice is not a spiritual choice God uses it His way.  And God's ways are not our ways.  I need to believe that we can thwart God's plan temporally.  That I am not a robot.  dessa