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Author Topic: saved through what?!  (Read 6053 times)

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fe32k

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saved through what?!
« on: November 04, 2007, 06:07:04 AM »

Can anyone shed some light on this:

1Ti 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

I know Ray is busy with the conference, so I figured I shouldn't bother him with it. But what does this mean? I have looked at different translations and have nothing. How can childbearing save a woman? Thanks in advance.

GBWY,
Roy
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Chris R

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2007, 07:36:03 AM »

Childbearing does not save a woman, Yet all will be saved.

For there is but one name under heaven from which men can be saved it is Christ.

Yes all "shall be" saved.

But how? 

Through the name of Jesus Christ,

How is this accomplished?

Judgment!  And who judges? 

don't you know the Saints shall judge the world? [1Cor 6:2]

And just where do these Saints come from?

Through childbearing......But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, [Gal 1:15]

Chris R

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2007, 09:29:21 AM »

Hello Roy


Firstly I would like to suggest to you that you make a study of http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm Twelve God-given Truths to understand His Word.

For me, the word “saved” in this verse does not  mean what Babylon preaches and believes that some will be “saved” and others will not be “saved.” As noted by Chris R one can not be "saved" by giving literal physical birth to a child.

Also, the Scriptures are not literal but Spiritual.

The spiritual admonitions to women  from the verse you are studying were that they continue in faith, love, holiness and sobriety in order to not die in giving birth. This holds true for  spiritual maturity to salvation which as Chris R notes is through Jesus Christ.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: November 04, 2007, 10:00:37 AM by Arcturus »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2007, 02:02:12 PM »

Well consider the fact that we are being concieved by God right now, and that when we are birthed, or BORN AGAIN into the KINGDOM we are SAVED.

Here is another interesting scrpture to consider;

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2007, 02:03:54 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Kat

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2007, 09:29:21 PM »

Hi Roy,

Here's a little bit of a different perspective.

1Ti 2:13  For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15  Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

saved in Strong's - to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively)

I am looking at this in a physical sense.  The women was created second, she was decieved, it says she is the weaker vessel (1 Peter 3:7).  All these things seem to make the woman lesser than a man.  But she was given the grand purpose of being the one to which all of mankind is brought into the world.  This in and of itself gives the woman a awesome purpose that nobody can deny.  But then again this is not enought by itself, if the woman has a terrible character.  So this gives her worth, but it is up to her to add the good character (faith and charity and holiness with sobriety) to gain respect from people.

that's just what I am thinking  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat


« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 11:07:20 AM by Kat »
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fe32k

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2007, 12:13:06 PM »

Thanks Everyone,
I am aware and believe all the teachings in Bible-truths. But as Ray says, when the scriptures speak of being saved, it can sometimes be referring to the elect. Sure the scriptures are spiritual, but I think Kat makes a good point as well as Chris. I am going to ponder on this a little longer. My wife and I had a debate regarding this scripture and I want to make sure I give her a scriptural answer. She sees it as just another example of how the Bible demeans women. I need to show her this is not the case.

Thanks Again,

Roy
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hillsbororiver

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2007, 02:43:25 PM »


 But as Ray says, when the scriptures speak of being saved, it can sometimes be referring to the elect. Sure the scriptures are spiritual, but I think Kat makes a good point as well as Chris. I am going to ponder on this a little longer.


Hi Roy,

There is no doubt in my mind that the scriptures have many layers of truth contained within them, remember "first the physical then the spiritual" I can see what everyone else has written here has merit, my own take on this in regard to your question goes back to Romans 8:19-23;


Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
 
Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
 
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
 
Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
 
Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (The birthing of the Body of Christ?)

We know the church is weak, we know it is deceived but we must also consider how the church has kept the Word intact through the ages, the Temple and Synagogues preserved for us the Old Testatment and the Christian Church has preserved the Bible through the ages, providing the elect in each generation the opportunity to meditate on His Truth.

Of course it was God who directed these things but these institutions are and were the vessels He used in accomplishing this, just as God could have just as easily created each and every person who ever lived just as He created Adam, He chose to use Eve and the women of every generation to create and multiply to suit His purpose.

The chosen come out of the church and will eventually work with the Lord in bringing all men to the Father, they will have a part to play in the salvation of those still in Babylon and beyond. Remember the woman is also symbolic of the church, the virtuous woman for His church and the harlot for the worldly church, both will be brought to perfection through the pain of trial, tribulation and judgment.

This is my take on this topic and of course I am open to any comments or correction if need be.

His Peace to you,

Joe
   
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 04:28:57 PM by hillsbororiver »
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Gregor

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2007, 04:01:45 PM »

Here's a thought: Prior to children, God wouldn't be called the "Father," He would only be God. And salvation came through the "Son" therefore salvation was/is only possible because of the role the mother played (Who would need salvation if there were only God?). Quite the honour in fact, not demeaning. In the natural, the mother is not called a mother either, until children are involved. So both the "parents" are necessary in order for there to be offspring. In the spiritual, as Joe just said, this too involves being "brought to perfection through the pain of trial, tribulation and judgment." Childbirth is a type or shadow of the spiritual birthing of the children of God. Following is a verse spoken by Paul: Galatians 4:19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,...
Should men take offense to his statement? Should women take offense to the verse in Timothy? I think only if their spirit is looking for a reason to take offense. The division of labor is clearly seen in Genesis where God tells Adam his labor will be to till the ground and Eve's labor will be through childbirth. Both forms of labor are types and both are equally important to starting and maintaining a "family" - both in the natural and spiritual. What strikes me as important is the words "shall be saved...if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" This applies to men and women alike. We must continue and not give up in pressing towards the prize of the high calling - not yet attained, but it is to come. In the natural, men with carnal thinking have used the verse in Timothy to put a yoke of burden on women, just as they misinterpret many other scriptures. Pray for understanding, for eyes to be opened.
G.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 04:05:27 PM by Gregor »
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Gregor

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2007, 04:16:50 PM »

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

"joints and marrow" - the natural, carnal thinkers included

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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skydreamers

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2007, 08:52:49 PM »

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1 Timothy 2:11-12

Paul said I want your women to be silent and your husbands to teach but this is not so much about real physical women but has a deeper spiritual application.  I see the woman as being symbolic of our minds within the “church”.  The church is the “temple” which is us...our bodies.  The woman is the mind speaking and talking in this body. 

God doesn't want “her” speaking but the husband...the Christ IN YOU, that the works produced will not be laden with fear, gossip and unbelief.   God is interested in birthing forth the child of righteousness  through the woman ( your mind). 

But women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
1 Timothy 2:15

For it is by this woman ( the mind) birthing the Christ (manifesting his nature to the world) that she (all) shall be saved.  The child that we bear in the world is the Christ nature coming through this woman bearing forth His nature and likeness into the world.  The Christ nature is what "preserves" the woman (us).

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
 
So when Paul says, woman be silent in the church, he's speaking of flesh and carnality speaking through our mind in this body.  God is going to silence that:

Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for he has roused himself from his holy dwelling.
Zechariah 2:13

Through the woman (your mind) the husband (Christ in you) will manifest Himself and speak for you if you will submit.

Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? It is in the sight of God that we have been speaking in Christ, and all for your upbuilding, beloved.
2 Corinthians 12:19

The same reason goes for woman not teaching...God doesn't want the “woman” in you to teach what she thinks the Word is saying.  The fact is the Husband (Christ) is the only one who can teach God's word.  The inner fountain (spirit of God) that springs up through the mind and causes you to understand the truth.  God giving eyesight.

Christ is coming together with his church, the woman (your mind) is being married to the man (the mind of Christ) and the two are becoming one.  And the world is waiting for the offsprings of love.

For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation (the birth) of the sons of God.
Romans 8:19

For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:16

For both He who sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of One...
Hebrews 2:11

Peace,
Diana
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 09:35:58 PM by skydreamers »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2007, 09:11:56 PM »

Hi Diana,

I like the spiritual application you made here in regard to speaking/teaching, a very good observation and point.


Can anyone shed some light on this:

1Ti 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


Hi Roy,

Once again I may have been too long winded in my original post.

Simply stated the salvation of all (the Fall Harvest) will be expedited by the elect in Christ (who are all born of women) who endure to the end. 
 
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

You see she shall not be saved by the act of giving birth but by the result of it, children who are chosen by God to be with Christ in bringing salvation to all mankind.

Peace,

Joe
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sansmile

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2007, 10:36:40 PM »

DIANA,

amen   amen
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Walk in the Spirit

fe32k

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2007, 01:34:14 AM »

Hi,

Joe that is a very interesting way to see this. It didn't make sense because sometimes I still think in terms of this life only and not in the plan of the ages. My thoughts are still expanding when it comes to some scripture.

As far as Diana's view goes, I think God's word has more depth than can be figured out and hers is also an interesting observation that may have legitimacy. On the other hand, I think that here Paul was speaking plainly and was not trying to make a symbolic parable. It does not have any characteristics that would infer as such. What do you think?

Thanks everyone...

GBWY,
Roy
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2007, 01:56:51 AM »

Hello Fe32k

You observe :... Paul was speaking plainly and was not trying to make a symbolic parable. It does not have any characteristics that would infer as such.

This is a common acceptance regarding the Bible in most Churches. If you have not already read the following http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html  Lazarus and the Rich Man, you might begin to see this and if you have already read that link, there are other teachings that can give you pointers to seeing that the Scriptures are not literal.  It is important that you find these treasures. The Bible is a Parable. The words Jesus Christ spoke are Spirit and the Spirit of Jesus Christ inspired the scriptures which too are Spirit and Truth not spoken literally or of any interpretation to themselves.

These truths are just some of the treasures available in the teachings we have through Ray. If you need more tools to see this you can also study http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD
 
Peace to you

Arcturus :)
 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 02:01:57 AM by Arcturus »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2007, 09:30:03 AM »

Hi Roy,

I think one of the most incedible truths I have learned from the articles on Bible Truths is how we should read, study and perceive scripture keeping in mind "first the physical, then the spiritual."

This has greatly helped me in learning to discern some of the Truths contained within His Word, there are often many layers of Truth and Wisdom there to be discovered.

Arcturus provided some excellent examples and here is a bit more;



FIRST THE PHYSICAL AND THEN THE SPIRITUAL

"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:46).

Now then, was that bread that the fathers ate in the desert the "TRUE bread from heaven?" No, it clearly was not, Jesus said it was not! And so, can we not see, can we not believe, can we not understand, that Jesus Christ IS

"…the TRUE bread from heaven. For the bread of God IS HE which comes down FROM HEAVEN and gives life unto the world" (John 6:32b-33).

Hold this thought ……

And now back to Malachi again:

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse that there may be meat [bread] in Mine house, and prove me now herewith, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it" (Malachi, 3:10).

This is vital to understand: God does not berate the people or the priests for the lack of quantity in their tithes and offerings and sacrifices, but rather a lack of quality. Here is absolute Scriptural proof of what I say. They brought offerings, but why would God not accept their offerings? Because they offered "blind, lame and sick sacrifices." And why did they do that? Because they themselves were spiritually blind, lame and sick. There was quantity to their offerings, but not quality.

"And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? And if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? Offer it now unto your governor; will he be pleased with you, or accept your person? Says the Lord of hosts" (Mal. 1:8).

Read the entire article here;

http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html

Peace,

Joe

« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 09:54:55 AM by hillsbororiver »
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skydreamers

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2007, 01:13:48 PM »

Quote
As far as Diana's view goes, I think God's word has more depth than can be figured out and hers is also an interesting observation that may have legitimacy. On the other hand, I think that here Paul was speaking plainly and was not trying to make a symbolic parable. It does not have any characteristics that would infer as such. What do you think?

Hi Roy, well certainly you can take what Paul is saying as "plainly" or literally, but then that is all you will get out of it as well.  Only the spirit of God can open your eyes and confirm these things for you. 

But here's a question for you, if we insist on taking this literally only and not allow a spiritual interpretation than what are we left with?  We are left with an instruction from Paul that physical women are physically to keep silent in the church. 

Is this forum not a church (an assembly of like-minded believers)?  And if you go to a church do the women there speak?  Here's the problem, if we are to live by "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" and if we are to take this instruction by Paul literally than neither I or any of the other fine ladies on this forum should be sharing our learnings with you....we should keep silent. 

And you are left with the literal interpretation that a woman "shall be physically saved in physically childbearing" provided of course she continues in faith, love, holiness (none of which she can accomplish without Christ...without me you can do nothing...) 

If you find it difficult to see yourself in the woman's role in terms of your relationship with Christ, than you won't seek after being His bride. 

You run into all sorts of problems when you walk down this road of taking things literally.  This model of the husband/man and his wife/woman is a deep mystery and stretches far past the physical world around us.

The scriptures are inspired by the spirit of Christ.  We can be sure Paul is speaking the words of Christ.  And if we can be sure of that, than we can be sure it is in parable form.

And with many such parables He was speaking the word to them as they were able to hear it; and He did not speak to them without a parable; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.
Mark 4:33-34

May God bless you in your studies,
Peace,
Diana


 
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2007, 03:21:49 PM »

To add to what Joe and diana have both said -

Dear roy, consider as ray has said;

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words [what wholesome words? Whose wholesome words?], even THE WORDS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST…" (I Tim. 6:3).

"ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God… "(II Tim. 3:16)

The words of Paul that have become Scripture were inspired of God, and they were the same words as "…THE WORDS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST…"

and we know that Christ words are;

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

God bless,

Alex

« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 03:22:57 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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fe32k

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2007, 05:51:26 PM »

Hi Joe/Arcturus,

I am aware of these teachings and have been a reader of this site for over a year (just not very active on the forum). Ray's teaching of first physical then spiritual (Ph/Sp) is a great revelation and I have applied it many times in my studies. My issue with the verse in question is not this concept of Ph/Sp as I do believe it, but that I highly doubt that Paul was speaking in a parable to Timothy, a very young pastor. His intentions was to teach him and prepare him, so why would Paul not speak plainly? The example that arcturus gave me was from Jesus whom we all know ONLY spoke in parables to the multitudes. Paul on the other hand speaks plainly and with a clearly stated command in most of his writings, with maybe some exceptions. So if he said it with one intention, but then other deeper meanings can be derived from it, does that mean that we void his original intention and just apply the deeper meaning? I hope that question came out clear. I do not want this topic to take a bad turn, so maybe I will look into it more and pray for an answer. Although, I am just a lurker on this forum mostly, I have come to really appreciate many of you and I hope I have shown that I clearly ask sincerely and am not trying to be divisive.

God be with you,
Roy
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fe32k

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2007, 06:02:55 PM »

Hi Diana,
I didnt see your post until now. Forgot to click on page 2  :P

I agree with you Diana. There is deeper, spiritual meaning in what Paul said, but was that his intention? That is what concerns me. It might have well been the intention of God's spirit to place this in scripture as a symbol of some sort, as a parable. But it is just beyond me why Paul would write an epistle that is seemingly instructive in nature to Timothy so that he may decipher some parables contained therein. This changes my question to what I said in the post before this one... Do we void what was intended in this writing? I know this is a difficult subject, but I hope you can understand my concern, exspecially coming from a married man. It must be admitted that Paul might have actually meant and taught exactly what he said without symbolic meaning.

GBWY,
Roy
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skydreamers

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Re: saved through what?!
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2007, 07:26:35 PM »

Hi Roy, I do see what you are saying.  What do we do with Paul's "plain statements"?  Well, here's how I look at.  Applying "first physical, then spiritual" we could approach it in the same way Jesus approached the law.  As someone matures in Christ and understands and applies the spiritual meaning inwardly, than the outward application is irrelevant. 

For example, we no longer keep a physical Sabbath day because we apply the spiritual meaning of the Sabbath rest and rest carnally from our works inwardly in Jesus Christ, who is our Sabbath.  But for a time, while a babe in Christ, many feel the need to adhere to an actual physical day.  Is that wrong? No.  Is it necessary once you have matured? No.  Your growth in the spiritual determines what you do physically. 

So, if a person feels the need to apply the physical application than they surely should do that until God convicts them of the spiritual, in which case, they will no longer need the "schoolmaster" because they have graduated (so to speak).  And hopefully they will not go backwards to the elementary principles of the world (the physical stuff). 

Quote
I highly doubt that Paul was speaking in a parable to Timothy, a very young pastor. His intentions was to teach him and prepare him, so why would Paul not speak plainly?

So yes, perhaps there is a place and time at the beginning of one's walk that they could take this and apply it physically.  Babes in Christ start in the physical...but all physical things point to a deeper spiritual application.  Once God has given you the ability to grasp the spiritual meaning you don't need the type/pattern to help you understand.  Once you know and understand how 4 +3 = 7 you don't need the abacus anymore to help you count in out.

Now, if all churches adhered to this instruction and women did not speak, would we have more enlightened churches?  Highly unlikely.  We know that there were many Jews including Paul "blameless" as to the Law, who faithfully performed all physical requirements and still did not have a clue as to what these physical requirements actually pointed to.  So again, the "doing" of the physical is really irrelevant, it is the "understanding" of what the physical means (which comes from God) that is the only thing that matters.  I don't have to have ever kept a Sabbath day to the "Tee" according to the Law, to now understand what it means.  I can read about it in God's word and take it's instruction spiritually.  If God has given someone that ability to SEE than you don't NEED the physical, since the physical only pointed to the understanding you already have.  Am I making sense?

Quote
Do we void what was intended in this writing?


No, I don't think we void it anymore than we void the Law, it is fulfilled in Christ Jesus.  Do we void the Sabbath?  No, it is fulfilled in Christ Jesus.  Do we void "do not murder"? No, it is fulfilled in Christ Jesus who alone gives us the ability to adhere to an even higher standard and not hate our brothers.  If we have come to that place where we are no longer under the law, but under grace within ourselves, than it no longer matters who is silent or not outside of ourselves.

We both know, there is no ideal church that exists today...God's true church is scattered.  How then, are we assured that the men in our churches are indeed mature in Christ, able to lead the women?  There are women, afterall, that are leaps and bounds ahead of their husbands, spiritually speaking.  My husband doesn't even know what he believes!  My true husband is Jesus Christ and He alone leads me.  I don't need to be silent, here or anywhere else, as long as I am silent in the Lord.  At least, that is my desire.

All this makes sense in my own head but I may have not articulated it right.  I hope, at the very least, it has given you something to think about.

I will be silent now... ;D ;) (just kidding...)

Peace to you,
Diana
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