> General Discussions
God is creating (present) man in His image?
hillsbororiver:
Looks like a bad translation, I think Ray addresses this verse in one of the papers, I will check. In the mean time let's break it down a bit into the original Greek.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit4151 and soul5590 and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
It would appear that the prejudice of the translaters (English) may be filtered in.
SOTW:
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---I heard Ray say that the true translation of Genesis 1:27 is that God is creating man in His image - as opposed to created (past tense). This makes sense in that Adam couldn't have sinned if he were perfect.
However, I haven't heard or seen anywhere else that the Hebrew does state that it is a present tense action. Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have anything to offer? Thanks.
--- End quote ---
Yes. Though on his forum, the only thing I can tell you to do is ask Ray Himself.
There is no reason to bring it to a forum in which many different views will conflict with each other and cause some to be banned for freely saying something they did not know was prohibitted and also prevent others from being drawn into vain arguments.
I also say and believe that God is creating (present) man in His image and there is pages of pages of Scripture to support it, though looking at the conversation here, it would be best that it is done one on one with Ray or Mike. It doesn't matter the TRINITY debate, that is a strawman side argument which derails any true progress into understanding we are presently being created in His Image, and the reason exists despite the differences in the dicotomy of the soul.
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: Laren ---I won't get involved here too much, as this is a similar thread to what got be kicked off the last time. But it seems to me, there should be a disntinction made between those who believe and are new creations in Christ versus those who die physically unregenerated.
Joh 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;
Can we not have this life now??? I believe we can. So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.
If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. New, not the old creation described in Genesis 2.
Joh 11:26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
--- End quote ---
Sorry... But your misunderstanding is the result of a poor translation and a basic misconception.
The followers of Christ, indeed, will receive eonian life (the 1000 year reign) but not until AFTER the resurrection. I will show you.
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats..." (Mat 25:31, KJV).
Did you read the first sentence? Good. So lets understand something... this happens when the Son of man comes in his glory with the holy angels, which we all know is future. I'm sure you'll agree with me there, correct? Read on...
"...[yada yada yada] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you [the sinners and unbelievers], Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios]" (Mat 25:45, KJV).
Okay. Do we have this established, now? The sinners and unbelievers "go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" when "When [and only when] the Son of man shall come in his glory..." Understand?
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5, KJV).
Resurrection – “the state of one risen from the dead� (Merriam-Webster).
The resurrection will give life to the dead, not to those that are hopping around in heaven alive. Resurrection=give life to the dead. Resurrection does not=give life to the living.
You quoted Joh 11:26. I’m honestly surprised you haven’t discovered what this verse really means, yet.
“καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. πιστεύεις τοῦτο;â€? (Joh 11:26, KJV).
Can you read that whole verse? No? Good… you’re not better than me. We’re off to a good start. However, I do know eis ton aiona means into the duration/age/eon.
Lets look at the Strong’s definations.
G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literallyor figuratively.
G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age…
So… “to or into [G1519] … the [G3588] … age [G165]�
Rotherham translates it thus, “And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?� (Joh 11:26, KJV).
The CLV translates it, “And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?� (Joh 11:26, KJV).
If you want, download an interlinear (perhaps, scripture4all—run a google search to find it) and check for yourself.
Hope I helped clear that misunderstanding up.
lilitalienboi16:
Great post nitemare.
There should be no doubt in anyones mind here the state of the dead, and when they are given life again. Plenty of scripture to prove the Ressurection of the DEAD has a purpose. (We are not flooting around in heaven in eternal bliss before then.)
orion77:
I believe one of the greatest aspects of our belief is in the resurrection. The fact that Jesus died and rose the third day is the most spectacular event that has ever occured in the history of all history. If we were to die and then either go to heaven or hell, what would be the purpose of the resurrection? What would be the reason for our faith?
God has said, the wages of sin is death and the day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall surely die. This is why Jesus came to save us from death eternal to give us life, even though we must still die, it no longer is a death forever. The resurrection of Jesus is what proves that death is conquered and the faith in this is paramount to ones belief. Jesus came to save us from the wages we earned, which is death, to give us life, life more abundant. Death and life is happening around us everyday of our lives, in the physical and the spiritual. The day will come when there will no longer be death, but only life, when God will be all in all. This is pure love, in which there is no fear.
The goal in all our lives is to fight the good fight, love God with all our hearts, love our neighbors as ourselves, and to forgive our enemies. This is easier said than done, but we must follow Him. There is no other way. We all die daily, warring against the flesh and the day will come we all will go the way of the earth, but this is not the end. This is where true faith comes, in believing things that cant be seen.
It is like, when we were young and tried to do something new, we have never done before. We were scared and asked our parents for guidance, and just when they said it will be okay, albeit still apprehensive, we did it. Then, we look around and see that it was nothing at all to be afraid of. God is not in the business of creating robots. That would not build true character, faith and love. It takes trust and obedience.
God bless,
Gary
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