> General Discussions
God is creating (present) man in His image?
Laren:
--- Quote from: nightmare sasuke ---[
Sorry... But your misunderstanding is the result of a poor translation and a basic misconception.
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats..." (Mat 25:31, KJV).
--- End quote ---
Actually,I believe the seperating the sheep from the goats is going on right now, in my opinion. That's why judgment begins at the house of God.
Here is something Mike V wrote to me once:
I don't mean to over simplify this subject, but when you get a handle on the Is, Was And Will Be, character of the Word Of God, which is Christ, you will realize that the separation of the sheep from the goats has actually been going on in type since Cain and Able, and the separating of the sheep and the goats has been going on in spiritual reality since Christ and the separating of the elect from the called generation by generation. The "separating of the sheep and the goats," is a statement about the "day of judgment," which is now on the house of God:
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that [the day of] judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us [the sheep], what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [the goats]
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous [sheep] scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner [goats] appear?
The day of judgment "first begins at us." The "end of those who obey not the gospel of God," is a reference to the lake of fire reserved for the "goats."
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand [the goats], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The 'goats,' are the angels (the messengers-ministers) of Satan the Devil.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
There will be vast multitudes of goats on God's left hand and a very small flock of sheep on God's right hand. But what is not realized by the "historical orthodox Christian church," which will comprise that vast multitude of goats, is that since the Word of God Is, Was And Will Be, True. They cannot conceive of "that day," being "judgment must begin at the house of God," right now.
It is being judged now, while yet in this flesh, that qualifies one to be in the first resurrection as an "overcomer." It is only the "overcomers," who are given positions of ruler ship over "cities," in the kingdom of God. It is only the "overcomers" who will "judge angels."
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
....
Mike
Lightseeker:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver ---I have read through the thread and did not see this verse quoted, maybe I missed it, if I did please forgive me.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath5397 of life; and man became a living soul.
--- End quote ---
Actually it was mentioned by Nightmare and I responded on pg 3 May 1 11:20am
1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--- Quote ---Looks like a bad translation,It would appear that the prejudice of the translaters (English) may be filtered in.
--- End quote ---
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The problem with Strongs in trying to figure out some of these terms (spirit, soul) is that they gave definitions based upon their understanding which weren't the best IMO.
The word spirit is pneuma in the greek. We derive words like pneumonia, pneumatic and other words dealing with air from it.
But the word soul is psuche in the Greek. From that word we derive words like psychotic, psychology, phychiatric and words dealing with the mind from it.
Strongs says pneuma can be defined 'the rational soul', 'mind', mental disposition'.
Strong's then says that psuche is the 'immortal rational soul', 'breath'.
This poor separation of definitons is very confusing when one reads their bible IMO. There is a world of difference between a 'mind, will, intellect' type of word when compared to a literal 'spirit' which gives life type of word. That's why I look at these definitions and say the:
The spirit is the animating life force. The life principle that comes from God which causes this flesh bucket to work.
The soul is the motivating life force or the part of us which thinks.
The unrenewed soul is always in tension between our spirit from God and the lusts of the flesh. Which ever one our soul lines up with determines our action. If our soul lines up with the spirit we lead our bodies about as a slave. But if our soul lines up with our flesh, we quench our spirit and commit sin.
GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Laren:
--- Quote from: nightmare sasuke ---
--- Quote from: Laren ---I won't get involved here too much, as this is a similar thread to what got be kicked off the last time. But it seems to me, there should be a disntinction made between those who believe and are new creations in Christ versus those who die physically unregenerated.
Joh 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;
Can we not have this life now??? I believe we can. So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.
If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. New, not the old creation described in Genesis 2.
Joh 11:26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
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Sorry... But your misunderstanding is the result of a poor translation and a basic misconception.
The followers of Christ, indeed, will receive eonian life (the 1000 year reign) but not until AFTER the resurrection. I will show you.
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats..." (Mat 25:31, KJV).
Did you read the first sentence? Good. So lets understand something... this happens when the Son of man comes in his glory with the holy angels, which we all know is future. I'm sure you'll agree with me there, correct? Read on...
"...[yada yada yada] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you [the sinners and unbelievers], Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios]" (Mat 25:45, KJV).
Okay. Do we have this established, now? The sinners and unbelievers "go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" when "When [and only when] the Son of man shall come in his glory..." Understand?
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5, KJV).
Resurrection – “the state of one risen from the dead� (Merriam-Webster).
The resurrection will give life to the dead, not to those that are hopping around in heaven alive. Resurrection=give life to the dead. Resurrection does not=give life to the living.
You quoted Joh 11:26. I’m honestly surprised you haven’t discovered what this verse really means, yet.
“καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. πιστεύεις τοῦτο;â€? (Joh 11:26, KJV).
Can you read that whole verse? No? Good… you’re not better than me. We’re off to a good start. However, I do know eis ton aiona means into the duration/age/eon.
Lets look at the Strong’s definations.
G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literallyor figuratively.
G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age…
So… “to or into [G1519] … the [G3588] … age [G165]�
Rotherham translates it thus, “And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?� (Joh 11:26, KJV).
The CLV translates it, “And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?� (Joh 11:26, KJV).
If you want, download an interlinear (perhaps, scripture4all—run a google search to find it) and check for yourself.
Hope I helped clear that misunderstanding up.
--- End quote ---
Also Nightmare, will u comment please on this verse. Is this still off in the future yet too???
Joh 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;
Joey Porter:
--- Quote from: SOTW ---
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---I heard Ray say that the true translation of Genesis 1:27 is that God is creating man in His image - as opposed to created (past tense). This makes sense in that Adam couldn't have sinned if he were perfect.
However, I haven't heard or seen anywhere else that the Hebrew does state that it is a present tense action. Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have anything to offer? Thanks.
--- End quote ---
Yes. Though on his forum, the only thing I can tell you to do is ask Ray Himself.
There is no reason to bring it to a forum in which many different views will conflict with each other and cause some to be banned for freely saying something they did not know was prohibitted and also prevent others from being drawn into vain arguments.
I also say and believe that God is creating (present) man in His image and there is pages of pages of Scripture to support it, though looking at the conversation here, it would be best that it is done one on one with Ray or Mike. It doesn't matter the TRINITY debate, that is a strawman side argument which derails any true progress into understanding we are presently being created in His Image, and the reason exists despite the differences in the dicotomy of the soul.
--- End quote ---
I would love to be able to ask L. Ray and Mike questions via e-mail, with the hopes of having them answered. However, I have emailed Ray once and Mike twice with various inquiries and have never received a response from either man. So, because I really want to know the answers to these things, I have no other choice but to post topics on this board in the hopes that some one here may know. I realize this thread got derailed into a trinity debate, but that was not by my doing. How was I to know that there would be "many different views that will conflict with each other?"
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Lightseeker ---
The unrenewed soul is always in tension between our spirit from God and the lusts of the flesh. Which ever one our soul lines up with determines our action. If our soul lines up with the spirit we lead our bodies about as a slave. But if our soul lines up with our flesh, we quench our spirit and commit sin.
GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
--- End quote ---
Sorry Dee I can't see your quote from Galations backing your supposition, it is clear that the breath of life from God and the body formed by God is what constitutes our "living soul." There is no doubt or argument that the desires of the flesh and the Spirit of God are not compatible. Do you have any scripture that backs your "soul lining up" statement?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul5315.
The original Hebrew shows the word "nephesh" to be a breathing creature.
H5315
#1504;פשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
I do not see the "soul" (your definition) lining up behind the flesh or the Spirit here either;
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
I have seen scripture use heart & mind as synonyms for our thought/thinking process, but not soul, soul is body + breath of life.
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