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Question (Christ was made sin?)
hillsbororiver:
Dear Ray,
Thank you for your ministry. I had not intended to write until I have completed reading all on your website. However I have been asked a question and would value your input......
My understanding of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ is that He was fully God and fully man throughout His life on earth - but that He set aside His will / His glory etc and only said and did that which He head from or say the Father do. In other words He could have performed all the miracles etc etc in and of Himself but only did / said everything through the Spirit of the Father - Thy will not mine be done - showing us how it to man should live - how to "be perfect as you Father in heaven is perfect..."...ie "to will and to do His good purpose".
I have been asked about Phil 2 vvs 8-9... And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name..., I have been told that this means that "when He became a man, He ceased to be God". I cannot reconcile this with any Scripture - and would value your comments.
Kind regards
Elizabeth
Dear Elizabeth:
I'm afraid this is one of those questions that it would first take ten pages to explain what we mean
by "God." What constitutes "God?" Was Jesus "God?' when He was in the flesh? ETc., etc., etc., etc. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US" (Matt. 1:23). Well now, was Jesus "a man with us" or "GOD with us?" Some claim that Jesus WAS THE FATHER IN FLESH. Makes one wonder who in the world Jesus prayed to if that were the case? Did He pray to HIMSELF? On the other hand, there are now those trying to deceive bible-truth.com readers into believing that Jesus was so totally FLESH, that "He was MADE SIN" rather than made "a sin OFFERING." Jesus was a MAN with the MIND OF GOD. Jesus "emptied" (Phil. 2:5, "But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and WAS [Greek for 'was' means "EMPTIED"]...." My margin says: "emptied himself of His privileges." Jesus gave up many of His prior privileges when He was made a littler lower than the angels for the express purpose of being able to DIE (Heb. 2:9). Notice that He was "crowned with GLORY and honour," yet He gave up much of His glory in becoming human, and that is why He prayed that His Father would RESTORE
the glories that He had with His Father from before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). Etc.
I'm sorry, but nearly 99% of all questions asked of me in emails are entirely too long for an email. I could easily spend a week or two researching and writing on this very question you ask. The Bible is not nearly as "simple" and Christians claim that it is. It will probably take me 60 pages to explain Matt. 5:22 and Matt. 10:28 in my upcoming Installment on Hell Part D. The more difficult Scriptures and concepts (as the one you just asked me), are tied to every other Scripture and concept in the entirety of the Bible. People have no concept of absolutely how PRECISE one must be in his words and explanations of these things, or it will contradict some verse somewhere. Maybe God has given me an ability to make difficult things understandable and seemingly "simple." Nothing, however, is SIMPLE in the Scriptures. If it were, not every major doctrine of Christendom would be UNscriptural. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
hillsbororiver:
Hello Ray,
Perhaps I’m bringing up a subject which you consider “put to bed” and would prefer having it left that way. But I just thought I would write you a quick note of agreement.
It concerns 2 Corinthians 5:21. (Christ made to be sin vs. sin offering). While you certainly destroyed all doubt about the proper meaning of that verse, I became curious as to what it said literally in Greek. I thought it would be appropriate for me to “search the scriptures” and learn what I could about why this controversy occurred.
After some cruising of the net, I found a bible study site that included the original Greek as part of their lessons. In its definition of the word sin (hamartia, 266), all the way at the bottom of many paragraphs of grammar usage that left my head spinning, there it was; 2 Corinthians 5:21 being used as an example of ‘the abstract for the concrete’. It was translated as: He treated Him who knew not sin as a sinner…...
As you stated, languages can’t be translated literally word for word, but this is certainly closer to a sin offering than made to be sin.
In addition, I realized that “For He has made Him who knew no sin, to be sin” can only be grammatically correct if the second ‘sin’ is used metaphorically, thus making it not a literal fact. Otherwise it is a bad translation (which it is).
It’s interesting to note that, even though they have that translation in their definitions, the bible study still uses the “to be sin” in their lessons.
May God bless you and yours.
Mike
Dear Mike:
NO, "He treated Him who knew not sin as a sinner…..." is a horrible translation. God never treated His Son "AS IF" He were a sinner, seeing that He NEVER DID SIN! "Sin OFFERING" is the proper translation, not based on the singular word "sin" from which it is taken, but based on the KNOWLEDGE OF HOWS LANGUAGE IS USED. We have a plethora of proof from the Old Testament that "sin" MUST be translated "sin OFFERING," in many Scriptures, and that is why it was translated "sin offering" in many Scriptures. But in II Cor. 5:20, the Translators dropped the ball and did not do what they surely knew was the proper way to translate it, but since they were working with Greek rather than Hebrew, they let it slide.
I have about 30 pages of notes on this subject and I will turn it into a full article in the near future, so look for it. There are many, many, Scriptural proofs against the damnable heresy that Jesus Himself was the personification of sin and that His Father was displeased with Him, and that He was marred in His Fathers hands, and had to be crushed and ground to powder all the days of His life, and that God thus poured out His anger, indignation and wrath against His Son, and that Jesus' blood was no different and no better than ours. I will blow this damnable teaching right out of the sky!
God be with you,
Ray
hillsbororiver:
October 06 Christ/Sin Pt. I
http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA
November 06
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3
Brett:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on January 17, 2008, 09:26:16 AM ---
October 06 Christ/Sin Pt. I
http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA
November 06
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3
--- End quote ---
Do they have transcripts?
Brett
hillsbororiver:
Hi Brett,
How are you doing? You have been missed Brother, I am very happy to see you here posting again, but unfortunately this particular topic has yet to be transcribed.
Kat has worked on and continues to work on getting everything transcribed and it is a huge undertaking.
Sorry about that but I am sure it will be available at some point.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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