> General Discussions
Free Will Question
Little Joe:
--- Quote from: Sozo on February 08, 2008, 09:43:01 PM ---Thanks for the comments. This one was especially helpful:
--- Quote from: Little Joe on February 08, 2008, 07:31:12 PM ---Yet how many sins, or evil acts, were committed to accomplish God's perfect plan of salvation? There was betrayal, abandonment, fear, denial, false witnessing, hatred, torture, and of course murder, to name a few. Yet, in each case, God did not make the person sin, they sinned because it was in their wicked heart to do so, and their circumstances were such that they gave in to the weakness of their flesh. Yet, it was indeed in God's perfect plan for them to do so, or else the Crucifixion wasn't possible. So, evil is necessary for God's plan to be accomplished.
--- End quote ---
Even though the sin was part of God's plan, God did not make the person sin. The person sinned because of his wicked heart. Is this in agreement with scripture? Is this what Ray is teaching here?
--- End quote ---
Yes, this is the way I understand what the Scripture teaches, and how Ray interprets it. Maybe the mods would like to comment.
Kat:
Hi Sozo,
I found these emails that I think will help with what you are having trouble with.
http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#calamity ---------------------------
So many Christian teachers are so willing to lie about the word of God. This is not a slip or a mistake on the part of this teacher. This teacher is deliberately lying and deceiving on this matter. And how can I say that? I don't need to say it, the teacher himself has admitted it. He said: "The word rendered evil in the KJV is better translated calamity." Now then, how could he say such a think except that he LOOKED AT THE HEBREW WORD rendered evil and found proof that it would be better translated "calamity."
But this is not possible. Let me prove it to you.
Look up the word "calamity" in Strong's Concordance and you will find that calamity is found 19 times in the Bible, all in the Old Testament. Three times calamity is translated from the Hebrew word "havvah" and it means "ruin or calamity." Sixteen times calamity is translated from the Hebrew word "eyd" which is defined as "oppression, misfortune, ruin, calamity and destruction." And here is an example of how it is used in Scripture: "I also will laugh at your CALAMITY" (Prov. 1:26). God is not going to "laugh at your EVIL."
Now then, what word did the Holy Spirit of God inspire to be used in Isa. 45:7? Was it "havvah" or "eyd" which really does mean "calamity?" NO. It was another word. And what word might that be? Well, it would be the word "ra" which means "bad or evil" and is translated "evil" FOUR HUNDRED AND FORTY-TWO TIMES in the Old Testament!!
Here are just a few examples of how this word is used:
"And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of the life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and EVIL" (Or does anyone think it should be "the tree of knowledge of good and CALAMITY?" (Gen. 2:9).
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only EVIL continually" (Or does anyone think that God say, "...his heart was only CALAMITOUS continually?" (Gen. 6:5).
"Come now therefore, and let us slay him, and cast him into some pit, and we will say, Some EVIL beast has devoured him..." (Or does anything that that they really said, "Some CALAMITOUS beast has devoured him...?" (Gen. 37:20).
Look up EVERY one of the 442 verses where "ra" is translated evil, and you will easily see the truth of this word. "Ra" never, EVER, means "calamity." So don't let these lying weasels deceive you into believing their deceitful and unscriptural heresy.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=224.msg1868#msg1868 ----
I have explained this many times, but there are few who can understand it. God created man subject to VANITY (failure). God made mankind that way. It is absolutely stupid for theologians to deny it. God plainly tells us this in Rom. 8:18:25.
Man has naturally a natural mind, a mind of flesh, called in Scripture the "carnal mind" and it naturally HATES God and cannot keep His law (Rom. 8:7).
But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further? God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.
Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children. Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?
God could stop all men from having sex with children. But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.
All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little childrfen. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds. And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins. This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine. I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.
God be with you,
Ray
Deborah-Leigh:
Little Joe
Just some thoughts....It is good that you discuss this topic.... :)
I believe the way you understand this now is the way it is taught and meant.
This has been a most edifying, encouraging and enjoyable thread. You ask : Even though the sin was part of God's plan, God did not make the person sin. The person sinned because of his wicked heart. Is this in agreement with scripture? Is this what Ray is teaching here?
My answer to you is YES!
Man acts out his wicked heart. To some God shows this to him and man repents, changes and advances into conformity with the image of Christ. To many others who are not repentant, do not see or understand that they are doing anything wrong... such persons are reserved for the wrath of God in the White Throne Judgement.
Those who are repenting and being judged now, will not experience the second death. God chooses who will be shown His Mercy at the White Throne and who are now receiving repentance by Gods Grace and Divine influence on their hearts now.
Not all who are called are chosen. GOD calls the shots. He hardens who He will and brings to repentance who He will. His Plan is that ALL will be saved. Some are being prepared for the salvation work ahead with Christ through Grace of God, and others are being left for the salvation experience of Gods Mercy in the LOF.
Peace be to you.
Arcturus :)
JimH:
Hi Sozo,
I've been here for only a short time, I haven't introduces myself yet, I'm trying to figure out how. Anywho I would like to give my thoughts on what you wrote. I've looked at this free will thing for awhile now and tried to figure it out, our minds can't really understand it, so we must go by faith that God knows what He's doing. This is an exampled that has helped me, I don't know if the Lord gave it to me or I heard it from Ray. Picture this, us human beings are pure evil, our hearts are wicked (God is in the process of forming us into His image), if we were left completely to ourselves without any involvement from our Creator, there would be no limit to what we would do. So then our Sovereign God has to perform his plan for mankind (His ultimate goal for us) controlling our wickedness to reach that, he keeps us from doing things he doesn't want us to do and He causes us to do (good or evil) things that He wants us to do, ALL to fulfill His plan. Once we are made into His image He won't have to use our evilness anymore because His goal has been accomplished.
Another thing about free will that has helped me, and again I don't know where I got this, is when I realized that God can't perform His plan if someones Else's free will can come in and change it. For someone to be able to rape my daughter purely of his free will apart from God's will for my daughter tells me that God not is Sovereign, either He is or isn't there's no in between.
This and many other things has helped me, Rays teachings and many scriptures Just seemed to fit together, as mentioned earlier it will only take the Lord to help us understand Spiritual truths, at least to put it all together.
May I say a quick word about that, just like the people before Christ didn't understand the truth but had a form of godliness and religions, (they were looking for a King not a sacrifice) the same today, people worship from what they think they understand about God, but they don't have a clue, as Ray says it, they are worshipping the shadow
I pray the Lord can use my words as a small part to help you
JimH
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello JimH
What you say is beautifully expressed : God can't perform His plan if someone else's free will can come in and change it.... free will apart from God's will tells me that God is not Sovereign, either He is or isn't there's no in between.
Welcome to the Forum!
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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