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Gene Balthrop:
Ray.....I have read  and listen to alot of your subjects you are talking about and am in agreement with most of them especially the Hell Fire and Free will issues. I still have a problem with Jesus existing before He was born, one problem i Have is i think the word Christ does not always mean Jesus, For instance where it Say's (Christ) WAS THAT ROCK that followed them in the wilderness. I take that to mean the anointing (IE God's spirit) was the (ROCK) that was following them. I also think there are times when Paul used the term Christ not implying the person Jesus, but the anointing. Just thought i would offer this.

The other thing i can't find any information about supporting your work, would like to help out financially if i can. I know there is no tithing laws, that" one of the reasons i left the wwcog around 30 years ago, just one of the reasons.

bless you brother, the work your doing is good...........gene..>  my email is genebalthrop@att.net

lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: Gene Balthrop on March 31, 2008, 07:30:25 PM ---Ray.....I have read  and listen to alot of your subjects you are talking about and am in agreement with most of them especially the Hell Fire and Free will issues. I still have a problem with Jesus existing before He was born, one problem i Have is i think the word Christ does not always mean Jesus, For instance where it Say's (Christ) WAS THAT ROCK that followed them in the wilderness. I take that to mean the anointing (IE God's spirit) was the (ROCK) that was following them. I also think there are times when Paul used the term Christ not implying the person Jesus, but the anointing. Just thought i would offer this.

The other thing i can't find any information about supporting your work, would like to help out financially if i can. I know there is no tithing laws, that" one of the reasons i left the wwcog around 30 years ago, just one of the reasons.

bless you brother, the work your doing is good...........gene..>  my email is genebalthrop@att.net

--- End quote ---

Hello Gene, welcome aboard to the forums.

Ray doesn't read these forums. Thought you should know, so if you want an answer from him, i suggest you email him. His email is on the home page near the bottom of it.

As far as your statement goes, their are several good indications that Christ existed long before He was born in the physical flesh;

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness:"

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Rev. 3:14 "These things says the Amen [Jesus] the faithful and True Witness [Jesus] the beginning of the creation of God"

John 16:27-28 "believe that I came out from God. "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world" 

John 17:8 "For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me."

I John 3:8 & 14 "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, be He SENT ME"

John 8:42 "because God SENT His only begotten Son into the world the Father SENT the Son to be the Saviour of the world"

Are their still any questions as to wether Christ existed before His physical birth into the world?

God be with you,

Alex

carol v:
Great response, Alex. Gene you might also want to consider this -- first I will quote some scriptures from an email of Ray's a few days ago...

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

No one has seen or heard God ever, Gene, so who was Moses talking to on the mount, who were the many OT people talking to and even more who said "Let there be light...

Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

I believe that scripture shows that it was Jesus Christ representing God to man from the very, very beginning. Notice that Paul says Jesus Christ was through whom God created all things -- not an anointing spirit but Jesus Himself.

Along with the scripture that Alex gave you IMHO it's pretty clear that it was Jesus Christ from the very beginning who has interceded with God and man.

Carol

Dennis Vogel:
Here's the link to help support Bible Truths

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3718.0.html

Gene Balthrop:
Thanks of all the replies, and it does seem to point to Jesus preexistence, But there are other scriptures the seem to that may not have been the case. I'll try to answer just a few, Jesus did not specifically say He preexisted as a being proyer to his being born. He could have been relating to his foreordained existence as Peter seems to say, "For Jesus was foreordained, before the foundations of the world, (BUT) was manifested in our time, and again It actually says the anointing was what followed the children of Israel in the wilderness. Also when Jesus was realting to the Glory He had before the world does not specifically mean He was their, it could mean the glory that was afforded Him before he ever came into existence.

Here is something that has to do with the Rock being The Spirit., Jesus ask Peter who He was and Peter responded," thou art the Christ the son of the living GOD", and notice Jesus' answer,"blessed art you Simon Barjona, Because Flesh and blood don't tell you this, (remember Jesus was flesh and blood) , but my Father who is in Heaven has reveled it unto you", then he Say's " and I say unto you you are Peter, (in other words Jesus had the ability to recognize who Peter was also)," and upon this Rock I will build the Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. Notice who was the Rock, It wasn't Peter or Jesus, But God the Father's power to get into the head of Peter and Jesus and show them truth and that was the Rock that was going to build the Church. There are a lot of other reasons to concider also, but maybe one day i can get together with you all and go through them.

But i really do like and agree with most of what Ray is teaching.

Peace to you all.................gene

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