> General Discussions
What ARE we saved from?
phazel:
--- Quote from: KristaD on April 14, 2008, 11:04:03 AM --- Yes He made me to where I would desire it, but in my mind that doesn't make me less guilty of the crime of wanting/doing it.
--- End quote ---
We are on the same wavelength for the most part, guilt is an issue that at least in how you explain it I must disagree.
The issue of guilt is emotion. You are accountable and I am accountable for what we do only because WE are the ones that do it, there is really nothing more to it than that if God is in control. Accountability does not mean guilt as we view it emotionally or even by definition.
We should not "feel" guilty if we are not responsible and couldn't do anything else other than what we have done in our lives.
The definition of guilty
1.Responsible for or chargeable with a reprehensible act; deserving of blame; culpable: guilty of cheating; the guilty party.
We may be able to "say" we are guilty if we are sure we are meaning accountability.
I say all this understanding that I feel guilt and I feel remorese when I do something that is wrong. But many times my feelings are emotional based upon how I view the way others might see me, not always thinking i have displeased God.
I honestly do not know how to feel that I have displeased God if he is the designer and purposer of everything I do. It is not my responsibility that I have displeased God in the first place it is his.
Now, is there any other way to be transformed into the image of God than what God has planned? NO......
That is the difference.
KristaD:
You're right we are not technically "guilty" but accountable; but my feelings are emotion and what I feel when I do wrong is guilt. And yes it is His will when we 'displease" Him, that's why we must get up, stop apologizing and move on. We are forgiven. I spent many months feeling separate from Him b/c of guilt ,so you're right it is a very important point that even our sins are His will and responsibility.
I guess I don't really see what you are talking about now, as it seems that you are just picking out words to disagree with ???
mharrell08:
Hello KristaD & Phazel,
Here is an email from Ray regarding Accountablity and Responsibility. The reason I am posting it is because this seems to be where you 2 disagree. I could be wrong but I am only hoping that it helps. Thanks
I haven't gone to church for many years now because I didn't feel right with any of the numerous ones that I attended. What a treat it was that I happened on to your website! Now if only I could find a church who believed the same way.
There is only one thing that I cannot figure out. It has really been bothering me and I hope you dot mind me asking. Since all of the events in our life are predetermined, how is it that we can be held accountable for what we do?
Maybe I got my wires crossed while reading your website but this is the question that has stuck in my mind.
Thanks to you and your devotion to the truly good news!
Vince
[Ray Replies]
Dear Vince:
Thank you for your email and question.
There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if we couldn't have done otherwise.
People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins. They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy. The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF. God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering. Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.
We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS. Think of sin as DIRT. It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.
Sincerely,
Ray
hillsbororiver:
You know if we are unaware of the plan and purpose of God then in ignorance we do what we believe is best for us at any given moment, often with a "damn the torpedoes" type of fatalistic approach. I know I did.
But once He begins to open our eyes and ears to who and what Christ actually is and our place in the scheme of things we begin to seek to do His will. That in a nutshell is what this whole experience is all about.
Learning obedience.
I believe that everyone at some point thinks they could have worked out this plan of creation (we are a work in progress) better than God, why all the pain, why all the doubts and unanswered questions, who needs these agonizing trials?
It does not seem right to us.
Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
To our old way of thinking this world makes no sense, why does God allow so many bad things happen to "good" people? He has done things just the opposite of what we suppose we would do if we had the power. As I stated above this whole journey is about seeking and doing His will, in being obedient, so how does God accomplish this? He puts "enmity" against Him in our carnal minds! (Rom 8:17)
What is up with that?
Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
In this creation process we must experience being disobedient first, then we come to the point of wanting to do right, to please Him but we of ourselves can't. We fail, stumble and fall but when we do there is His hand to lift us up once again, perhaps a bit stronger in spirit as we realize that only through Christ can we have victory, as His mind/Spirit increases within us our natural carnal mind decreases. (John 3:30)
Ray has written a whole lot on exactly this topic, we are here to learn obedience, that theme is throughout the bible and throughout the articles on Bible Truths.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
KristaD:
Hmm I didn't think we were disagreeing on it. I had just used the wrong word. Thanks for the e-mail. I've read it before and agree ;D
Maybe I just don't explain my point well. Oh well, I was only trying to help
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