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Spirit
Robin:
Hi Mbongiseni
Ray has a lot to say about your question here
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
If you scroll down you'll see the topic heading
NOT YET IN THE IMAGE OF GOD
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: Kat on June 09, 2008, 09:35:21 AM ---
Hi Roy UK,
I just want to bring these Scriptures up for your consideration, as to what you have posted.
--- Quote ---Though Mary was impregnated by the Father, I believe that He was also given the weak breath/spirit which gave Him mortal life in a human tent so He could face temptation and overcome.
--- End quote ---
Jesus was actually conceived by the Holy Spirit, which makes Him quite different right from His conception.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife; for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
He was in our "likeness." I believe this likeness gave Him the physical experience along with the pain and suffering, but not the carnal mind.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
v. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
If the "flesh" as in being carnal can not please God, surely Jesus had the Spirit all along. Because the Father said at the baptism of Christ that He was "well pleased" with Jesus, which means how He already had lived.
Mat 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Jesus was "full of grace" (divine influence on the heart) even as a child.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon Him.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
--- Quote ---Just like us, Jesus only received the Holy Spirit when He was baptized by John.
--- End quote ---
Baptism is but an outward show. Jesus was baptized by John as a shadow or as a picture for His followers as to what they would have to do spiritually, be baptized into Him.
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
v. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
v. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Being a physical human being He was exposed to all the things that we are. But His mind was different, in that when He was "tempted" or enticement by any kind of sin, He never even thought to comment it. Therefore He was "without sin."
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
I hope this was helpful :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi! Kath
I accept all that you have quoted, I did concede in my posting that I was aware that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. But my point was that He also possessed the weak spirit/mind/will of the Father's breath though He did have the advantage over us with having His Father's Spirit to direct Him and not allow Him to sin. Ray touches on this subject briefly in his "Lake of Fire" series chapter 16 (b) under "Jesus Christ Did Not Posses Free Will".
What confuses me is how Jesus can have a physical/mortal life in His body without the weaker breath/spirit/mind of God, which is something all living creatures have to have and which the Holy Spirit does not supply? It is the breath/spirit of God that gives mortal life to all living creatures "I said to myself concerning the sons of men, “God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts. For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity." (Eccl.3:18,19), and with God there is no partiality.
This is just what is coming to me, if it's wrong please put me right.
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
Kat:
Hi Roy UK,
I think your first statement is true, But my point was that He also possessed the weak spirit/mind/will of the Father's breath though He did have the advantage over us with having His Father's Spirit to direct Him and not allow Him to sin.
I think the Scripture you quoted says it, "As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath." It is that "breath," as you say of the weak spirit that gives everybody physical life. So Jesus Christ had the spirit that came with the breath on life.
But Jesus Christ had the advantage of the Holy Spirit from the beginning too, He had both spirits. In Luke it says He grew strong in spirit.
Luke 2:40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
This doesn't sound like it's speaking of the breath of life that "became strong," it was the Holy Spirit.
When we receive the Holy Spirit it bears witness with our spirit, two separate and different spirits.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
So even thought these spirits all come from God, they are different.
I hope these Scriptures can help us come to an understanding on this :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: Kat on June 10, 2008, 08:57:46 PM ---
Hi Roy UK,
I think your first statement is true, But my point was that He also possessed the weak spirit/mind/will of the Father's breath though He did have the advantage over us with having His Father's Spirit to direct Him and not allow Him to sin.
I think the Scripture you quoted says it, "As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath." It is that "breath," as you say of the weak spirit that gives everybody physical life. So Jesus Christ had the spirit that came with the breath on life.
But Jesus Christ had the advantage of the Holy Spirit from the beginning too, He had both spirits. In Luke it says He grew strong in spirit.
Luke 2:40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
This doesn't sound like it's speaking of the breath of life that "became strong," it was the Holy Spirit.
When we receive the Holy Spirit it bears witness with our spirit, two separate and different spirits.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
So even thought these spirits all come from God, they are different.
I hope these Scriptures can help us come to an understanding on this :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi! Kath
Yes, I see it now. I conceded that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit in my posting to Eileen. So Jesus had both spirits from the very beginning because it was the Holy Spirit that grew and carried Him through the temptation which is evident in the statements: , “On the other hand, it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ......“Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’ ” (Matt.4:7,10). It was God that Satin was trying to tempt.
Where I was totally wrong was in my statement that He received the Holy Spirit when He was baptized by John because He permitted it “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” (Matt.4:15) as proof to John and those around that He was Who John declared Him to be with the visual sign - the dove - and the voice from the heavens - “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” (Matt.4:17).
Thanks Kath, I will contact Eileen and explain my blunder.
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: EKnight on June 06, 2008, 01:01:04 PM ---There is the spirit that gives life to the soul, the spirit of wisdom, the Holy Spirit, Jesus' words are spirit, Ray has said that God and Jesus have the SAME spirit. Are these all the same spirit or different spirits?
Also, could someone explain to me if Jesus suffered and died on the cross for our sins why then must we still be chastised or purged of our sins in the Lake of Fire? And, did Jesus die for the sins of those who preceded his coming, ie Moses, Noah, Abraham, David and all those who lived B.C.?
I'm sure the answers are here on the forum but sometimes I read things and then forget....it's been a lifelong problem for me.
Eileen
--- End quote ---
Dear Eileen
As you will have seen from the postings there has been an error in one of my statements in which I said that Jesus received the Holy Spirit when He was baptized by John. I wish to correct this error because you will see that in the beginning I conceded that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, so it should have been obvious to me that He had both the weak/carnal/spirit and the Holy Spirit from the very beginning. I apologize for my misleading post.
Your original question was "Are these different spirits or are they the same spirit?" The answer "They are different spirits." from the same source, the Father. One is the weak breath/spirit/mind which all physical/carnal/mortal creatures are given in order to have life and the other is the Holy Spirit which is a gift from God to all who believe in His Son, and it is the LIFE that leads to immortality for them that overcome.. But there is a big....big difference between them.
Sorry about the misleading bit, other than that you have not been deceived.
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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