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Ronald Weinland and the-end.com
mark_from_oz:
--- Quote from: winner08 on June 11, 2008, 06:46:30 PM ---Yes, Mark I read This book your speaking of. I found this Guy to be out there to say the least. I beleive he said 08 would be the year that this age would come to an end. Also that the 7th seal has been open. Well the yr. is not over with yet. But as the Bible says we will know if this guy is from God by the fruit he bears. If the age ends then we will know he was speaking the truth. If not we will know he just one in a long line of false prophets.
Darren
--- End quote ---
Hi Darren, Thank You! This is the sort of reply I was looking for originally. :) Almost my thoughts exactly, I was skeptical of his book too, and thought to myself "time will tell I guess".
winner08:
No doubt Mark, I personaly beleive this man to be a false prophet. Mine you this is just my take. Anyways If you look back on the 1st page of this thread you will see where I emailed Ray on this matter, just to see what he had to say. You probably guessed he didn't think much of this guy. I was wondering myself why would one of the end time witnesses write a book in order to tell the world about his news. Then I thought maby this could be one way to get a message across to the masses. Then there's television. Let me say again, I beleive this guy to be a false prophet. But it does bring to mind who will be the 2 witnesses and how will we know that they are the ones. Will they do wonders? will it be on television so the world can see. Or is this symbloic and not to be taken litaral? The book of revelation is symbloic and it speaks of spiritual matters and not physical matters. So one has to ask, or they really 2 witnesses or is it a metaphore for some spiritusl meaning. From what I gather that is what the book of revelation is a revelation of spiritual matters. Then again I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first or the last time.
Thanks Darren
kweli:
Hello Darren
I'm very very young and that might make me out to be gullible, naive, etc. But as we all know, revelations is the Revelation of Jesus. Please read for yourself the purpose of the two witnesses.
Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devoureth their enemies; and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy, and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds, and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 But after three days and a half, the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fellupon them that saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from Heaven, saying unto them, "Come up hither!" And they ascended up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them
Also, bear in mind what Jesus said about things like "08 would be the year that this age would come to an end"...
Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour, knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark
39 and knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
As quoted from the second link that Craig put up, "As it states in the rules: This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com. " I think our fellow-shipping will work if first we are of like mind. As we learned from bible-truths.com, Revelations is in symbols. Verse 8 from above says "And their dead bodies [the two witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." That is both spiritual and symbolic. We have to at least agree on that for us to be able to build each other up.
I hope you understand better what Craig and Joe are saying.
All Glory to Him
BTW, I'm still learning about the symbols so I wont be able to explain them at this stage. However, I know for sure that people who say they are the two witnesses ought to be able to at least understand how fire will proceed out of their mouth and devour their enemies, how they are to shut heaven that it doesnt rain, how they are to turn waters to blood and smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: kweli on June 11, 2008, 03:58:49 AM ---I'm sold. No wait, I'm bought with a price.
Rightly dividing is sorted for me.
And yes, M.G. is right. The bible says the sheep run away from a strangers voice. And in my understanding of English and Scripture, stranger's voice could be a voice that is strange from Jesus' voice.
My suggestion to you Mark is maybe read the bible (since everything we need to know is in there) and wherever you stumble, ask in the forum, the mods or Ray directly. The good thing about this approach is, as Paul always said, Ray laid the foundation. Somebody else might put the wrong mortar or wrong size bricks on that foundation.
Hope you realize I'm not contesting your belief.
All Glory to Him
--- End quote ---
Hi! Kweli
Correction please! Jesus Christ laid the foundation, Ray like Paul is building on it and we are the helping workers building it up. Would you not say that Jesus not Paul or Ray is the Rock on which the foundation stone was laid, the Chief Corner Stone?.
Forgive me if I'm wrong.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
Kat:
Hi Darren,
--- Quote ---Or is this symbloic and not to be taken litaral? The book of revelation is symbloic and it speaks of spiritual matters and not physical matters. So one has to ask, or they really 2 witnesses or is it a metaphore for some spiritusl meaning. From what I gather that is what the book of revelation is a revelation of spiritual matters.
--- End quote ---
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html --------------------
LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC?
In many cases it is not difficult to determine whether a verse is literal or not. But, since we use figures of speech so often we tend to forget that much of what we say daily is not literally true. Many of us would hardly be able to carry on a conversation if we had to drop out of our vocabulary every word and every phrase we speak that is NOT LITERALLY TRUE. The English language, as well as all other languages, is just filled with symbolic and metaphorical phrases.
The first eleven verses of Chapter one in Revelation are an introduction regarding where, how, and what John is going to record for us. Much of this introduction can be taken literally, however, not all. Beginning with verse twelve, we are confronted with one symbol after another for the remainder of the entire twenty-two-chapter-book.
Everything written in Revelation is true, but most is not literally true.
The fact is there are many many truths in the Bible that are not literally true.
Jesus "said" that the bread He gave His disciples at the Lord’s supper was His body. Yet, Jesus Himself explains in other places that this was not literally true. He gave them literal bread, and not His literal physical flesh. What that bread represented, and symbolized, was indeed, His body--but not his physical body.
Jesus said that the words that he spoke were SPIRIT (John 6:63). Jesus Christ changes not. His words are STILL spirit and they certainly were spirit when John wrote the words of Christ regarding His unveiling or revelation. Just as we physically feed on physical bread for PHYSICAL LIFE, thus also we spiritually feed on Jesus Christ’s spiritual body for SPIRITUAL LIFE.
Understand this! Some think that by accepting the Scriptures as they are given (in the case of Revelation that means AS SYMBOLS), that somehow this "spiritualizes away" the teaching. What? It is the "spiritual" aspect of these symbols that IS THE REAL THING; THE REAL UNDERSTANDING! Physical things "pass away" whereas spiritual things are eternal! The very FACT that this book is written in "symbols" is proof positive that the understanding of them is SPIRITUAL and not physical or literal.
Symbols, metaphors, and parables ARE NEVER LITERALLY TRUE! But they powerfully demonstrate SPIRITUAL TRUTHS!
------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---So one has to ask, or they really 2 witnesses or is it a metaphore for some spiritusl meaning.
--- End quote ---
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses 3144, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
G3144 martus - a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a “martyr”: - martyr, record, witness.
Martyr - One who, by his death, bears witness to the truth of the gospel.
Do you see the connection here? These "two witnesses" are those put to death (spiritually). And it says in verse 3 "they shall prophesy," which is speaking under inspiration. And what is "clothed in sackcloth" a sign of?
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
I know this may be confusing, but I'm trying to look at what this verse means in the Scripture and what the "two witnesses" are; those who have repented and have been put to death while in the flesh and speak under inspiration of the Holy Spirit... the Elect.
Then you have the next verse that further brings understanding on this.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
Zec 4:11 Then I answered and said to Him, "What are these two olive trees--at the right of the lampstand and at its left?"
v. 12 And I further answered and said to Him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?"
v. 13 Then He answered me and said, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
v. 14 So He said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."
So who are these "anointed ones."
2Co 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
You can see that Paul speakes to the believers as "anointed" of God.
I hope this is helpful. As the book of Revelation is a book of symbols and a lot of times these symbols have more than one meaning. But the meanings can be found, you just have to dig it out of the Scriptures.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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