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Free Will Again
hillsbororiver:
We certainly do make choices, but Who sets the parameters and puts the circumstances before us? Think about all the things we have no control over at all as we get boxed into situations where we are forced to deal with something that perhaps we would never of had to confront if we could indeed make "free will" choices.
If we have a loved one who has a severe medical condition that has put them on life support but with little to no chance of regaining consciousness or even survival, the "choice" is put before us to either leave him artificially alive or pull the plug.
True "free" (no restrictions) will" would have us "choose" for him to completely recover and leave the hospital 100% healthy, wouldn't it? Sure we have a choice, to pull or not to pull but that is it, no infinite amount of "free" choices that can be contemplated, it is one or the other, period.
A panhandler is just arriving at an intersection to begin asking for money, the light turns red and there you are face to face with this person. Yes, you can choose whether or not to give him anything, but......
Before you left your house the phone rang (a solicitor) delaying the start of your journey, then a car cuts you off forcing you to slow down, they made the light but you got stuck at this intersection, the thoughts are racing through your mind; "if it wasn't for that stupid phone call, or that inconsiderate driver I wouldn't be here face to face with this begger, poor me."
You now are presented with a caused not free choice, a truly free choice could remove you from ever having to say yes or no to this pan handler.
We experience these things constantly, you wish you could be an NBA player, you love basketball but you are 5'6" tall, have asthma and your coordination is less than average, can your "free will" overcome these circumstances?
We could go on and on with examples (better ones than I presented for sure) that prove our choices are caused rather than free.
I will close with these;
Pro 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Peace,
Joe
Kat:
Good examples Joe.
Hi Darren, here are a few emails that may help you with this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4827.msg37299.html#msg37299 ----
I just marvel at the fact that year after year after year, 95% of all email questions and/or comments involve "contradictions." All day long I am asked to explain what my readers believe are contradictions. So far, however, no one has presented a true contradiction to the truth. It appears to most of humanity that if God Sovereign and man has no "free" will or "free" choice (that is, there is a cause for everything, and therefore whatever is caused to happen can not NOT HAPPEN, hence it is not "free"), then man has no reasoning abilities, cannot make a choice of what he prefers, and is therefore nothing but a mindless robot.
The reality is that we do have reasoning abilities, and we do choose what we prefer. You have now present a new twist that suggests neither the deceived person nor the enlightened one can know for sure what is truth, because his realization of truth is only that which God permits or allows him to have through his life experiences. I am not sure how you came to this conclusion. Try this: There was a time when most people (albeit not all) believed that the earth was flat. Now they really believed that and they really were deceived. But now that we fly space shuttles AROUND the earth in all directions, we know for a fact that the earth is a sphere. The TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.
The deceived have NO PROOF that they have a "free will," but the enlightened do HAVE PROOF that man does not have a free will.
In fact we have two proofs: The Word of God and Nature--science. Even if there is a supposed "law of uncertainty" or "randomness," it still would not allow for "freedom" of the will or "freedom" of choice. If a person's thoughts are "free" to come into existence without any cause, from where is it that they come? You may reply: "Why they come from ME and me alone." Oh really? But from WHERE is "you?" From your mind? Your will? Your WHAT? Did you think about thinking the thought before it came into existence? All you do is take the cause back to a more distance CAUSE. What CAUSED your thinking to think a thought? "THINGS" cause you to think thoughts. Thoughts do not come from "out of the blue." And if they did, then we have merely pushed the real "cause" back a little further, only this time the cause is "the BLUE"--whatever that is.
If Science proves something AND THE WORD OF GOD proves something, then it's true, and that is how you can KNOW that it is true. If you re-read my paper on "free will," you will be given both Scientific and Scriptural proof as to what the truth is on this matter. "THY WORD IS TRUTH" (John 17:17). Hope this helps your understanding.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2697.0.html -----
If the future is dependant upon our decisions that are truly "free" and not caused to happen, then the future cannot be known, NOT EVEN BY GOD. But, since God does know all that is in the future, it is proof positive that there is no such thing an effect which did not have a cause. If an event (an effect) that WILL happen is both free to happen and free not to happen, then why DOES IT HAPPEN? If it was "free" to NOT HAPPEN, then why did it HAPPEN. What CAUSED IT TO HAPPEN against its supposed freedom to NOT HAPPEN. How could an effect NOT HAVE BEEN EFFECTED (that's freedom)? The instant an "effect" comes about, it has lost all "freedom" to have NOT come about. Therefore ALL THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED was not "free" to not happen at all. If it were, theoretically, NOTHING IN THE UNIVERSE WOULD HAVE EVER HAD TO HAPPEN. Things are CAUSED to happen and that Cause is what we call "GOD." What I have just stated cannot be argued with any wisdom, logic, or true knowledge. To argue against what I have stated is sheer foolishness. Unfortunately, precious few can see it or understand it even though the Scriptures are very clear on it.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html -----------
OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE. Whose do think it is? When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice? If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth? Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well? No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it? We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what? It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE. Can you now understand it?
Do you still think you are a robot? I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.
God be with you,
Ray
Samson:
--- Quote from: winner08 on June 20, 2008, 10:54:18 PM ---I read Ray's paper on free will. I don't quite understand what he meant by we have no free will but we do have choices to make. I think you guys know what i am saying. If I am driving down the road and come to a left or right turn circumstance will dictate what way I will go. What is the difference between free will and choice?
Darren
--- End quote ---
Hi Darren,
I enjoy your fellowship on this Forum, in regards to explaining the Free Will Truth, Kat gave a good explanation, my advice is to listen to Ray's Audio again and again.
Not much for me to add except, A CHOICE CANNOT BE FREE IF THEIR'S A PRIOR CAUSE, IT'S A CAUSE/EFFECT RELATIONSHIP, PROVEN SCIENCE SUPPORTS THIS CONCEPT. YOU MAY OR MAY NOT BE CONSCIOUS OF THAT PRIOR CAUSE THAT LEAD TO YOUR CHOICE. A CHOICE CAN'T BE FREE IF THEIR'S A PRIOR CAUSE, NONE OF OUR MANY DAILY CHOICES ARE ORIGINAL, THEY HAVE A PRIOR ORIGIN. ONLY GOD HAS FREE WILL. WHEN YOU LISTEN TO RAY'S AUDIO AGAIN, NOTICE HE MENTIONS A DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF FREE WILL, ALSO STATEMENTS BY LEADING SCIENTISTS ON THE CAUSE/EFFECT RELATIONSHIP.
Now, I'm going to exercise and listen to this myself, because I start to forget these points.
Your Brother, Samson.
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: EKnight on June 20, 2008, 02:50:43 PM ---My husband won't give up his "free will" and I am constantly trying to show him he doesn't have any such thing. So the other night I said to him, "do you think you could go 24 hrs without sinning( I clarified and said by using your "free will')?" he thought about it and thought about it but never really answered. I told him there was absolutely no way he could do it. No one but Jesus has never sinned and he (my husband) couldn't even do it for 24 hrs. I think that's a pretty good scenario to present to "free willers".
Eileen
--- End quote ---
Dear Eileen
Does your husband have any weaknesses such as an addiction to smoking, alcohol or drugs or anything that he'd find impossible to kick. If so ask him to show how strong his free will is and chuck it completely without adopting some form of substitute.
If he has no weaknesses then, my dear, he is perfect hang on to him perhaps he's right. Seriously though in the end God's Will, not his puny little will, will be done and there can be no doubt about that. This is what God has to say about it: "Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it." (Isa.46:11). How do you think he will challenge that? Such people make me laugh, I hope he's not a big bloke?
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
rjsurfs:
Hello All,
The myth of free will is tough... it is a hard learning. Even when you think you've got it... you'll later find that it goes deeper than that... and it keeps going. I remember when I first saw the title of Ray's article on it a couple of years ago... the first thought that ran through my head was, "what does that have to do with anything?". The beast within is an accurate description of ourselves when this doctrine is alive and well in our hearts. I haven't heard yet of anyone that read over that teaching once and got it... as a few others have recommended, just get back into the study... study the scripture over and over and pray for understanding and a love for the truth.
I did want to comment on a particular comment by OBrenda... she said:
--- Quote ---Not all choices we make may have an effect on our salvation
--- End quote ---
I just wanted to clarify that we do not have any free choices that could affect our salvation or the salvation of others... this is the beast alive and well in Babylon. However, every caused choice affects the course or progress of our salvation... in that God is bringing (creating) us into his image... and everything has a reason and purpose. For the elect it is the burning of the spiritual wood, hay, and stubble out of our hearts while purifying the spiritual gold, silver, and precious stones of our hearts... by God who is our consuming fire.
I need to continue studying as I am always learning.
Bobby
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