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Going to church?
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: digitalwise on July 14, 2008, 09:56:30 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kat on July 14, 2008, 09:29:28 PM ---
Here is a email that Ray mentions communion and it also has a mention of Martin Luther that I've heard mention a few times.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,251.0.html ------
You know, I have kind of a rule of thumb: If the Church teaches it, it must be wrong.
Martin Luther and John Calvin were two of the most evil and vile heretics that have ever drawn breath on this earth. Disagree with heretic Calvin, and you just might end up being toasted over a low heat fire for maximum pain. Calvin is at the very bottom of the cesspool of humanity--what possible sin could top that?
There is no such thing as a "weekly Lord's day" in the Scriptures. Numerous physical rituals were performed in the early years of the Apostles' ministries until they came to a realization that it is the spirit that matters, not the physical. We are circumcized WITHOUT HANDS in our hear and spirit, and the same goes for communion, baptism, sabbath days, etc., etc., etc.
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
Whilst I do agree that Luther made many many mistakes, it would be helpful when any of these historical church leadership men are mentioned, a careful critic is done of them. They were only human coming out of the DARK ages of civilization and had many many flaws - just like you and me.
These men carried the light as far as they could in their time. The Lord understands them better then I. They held to the primitive DEVELOPMENT of NON-FREE WILL, UNIVERALISM and CARE for family as opposed to giving to church for blessing, buried men in santified grounds of the church who were not "Christian", established a social system for peasents so they did not starve by Church taxing the poor and stopped disease like black plague in cities through advancing of sanitation systems. Emphasis here is on PRIMITIVE doctrinal development. I'll leave alternative positives concerning these mere men to you doing your own research.
All in all we must NOT follow mere men but learn from their mistakes - as unfortunately history has a bad habit of repeating into our present.
Above all we need wisdom and balance when speaking on such matters of history.
digitalwise
--- End quote ---
Hi digitalwise,
Of course Martin Luther (and others) are/were only human and prone to sin as we all are, but we could also say that about other men who saw torturing and murdering as their "divine" right. We could list the "good" of Vlad the Impaler, Hitler, Stalin, etc. who also viewed themselves of having the power and authority over men's lives. But Luther and Calvin did these things in the name of Jesus!
In regard to Luther ending the Black Plague (Bubonic Plague, Black Death) he was not even born when the Plague wiped out 1/3 of Europe's population Luther lived from 1483 - 1546, the Black Plague's worst devastation was a five year period between 1347 - 1352.
Getting back to Hitler, Martin Luther was actually a philosophical mentor (not in person of course) of his, using many of Luther's writings to justify his treatment (Final Solution) of the Jewish race.
There is a plethora of information available in regard to this, here is an example;
"First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know."
http://www.awitness.org/books/luther/on_jews_and_their_lies_p2.html
While I wholeheartedly agree we should be temperate in our criticisms and strive (through His Spirit) to be merciful I do not believe we should elevate men such as Luther and Calvin to a sainted status, the Lord did indeed use their works for His purpose but He also used many other less than godly and compassionate men to do so as well.
Peace,
Joe
OBrenda:
Hi Eileen,
I believe what I hear you saying is "I am feeling Lost" and Separated. Going to Church was apart of your identity, how you expresses to the world, I belong and believe in God! It has been a shared intimacy that works like a glue for your family. It has been the way in which you have been an example to your Children and Husband.
Now what Do you do? (I don't know how to post a link to it, so I pasted some of Ray's points)
(I just reread Ray's article): WINNING SOULS FOR JESUS?
HOW TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH
I personally know a man who has his little wife working two jobs to support their family so that he can study the Scriptures and enter into doctrinal debates with other Christians at the local Cafe as a perpetual hobby. Notice the admonition of the Apostle Peter:
"Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; having your conversation [Gk: ‘conduct’] honest [Gk: ‘honorable’] among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may BY YOUR GOOD WORKS, [Not your clever Bible arguments], which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation" (I Pet. 2:11-12).
Your good works and righteous character will pay dividends to others eventually—if not in this life, then in the Judgment.
It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.
It is GOD who does the calling:
"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? ‘GOD’] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty…" (I Cor. 1:26-27).
It is GOD who does the dragging:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: ‘drag him’]…" (John 6:44).
It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:
"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
Eventually this will include all mankind:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).
And all will respond to Gods judgments and chastisements:
"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).
And let's not forget:
"…no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b).
Which is totally contrary to the horrible teachings of such men as John Hagee and Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject. Herbert Armstrong said: "Yes, every knee will bow, and if they don't GOD WILL BREAK THEIR KNEES." Oh the unscriptural foolishness of carnal—minded men.
But do orthodox Christians believe that these Scriptures mean what they say? Of course not, and that is why they quote Phil. 2:12 "…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," thinking that this takes Sovereignty away from God and places it back with man and his fabled "free will." Not so. They forget to read the next verse which tells us why we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling:
"For [‘for’ means ‘because’] it is GOD [Who? Man? NO! ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
___________________________________________________________________________________
What I think we are all learning here, in different areas of our lives, is to trust in Gods ability we have to die to ourselves in all things! He is ultimately "The Parent/Father" to your children, husband, you, and your entire family! Take that burdon from your shoulders, and walk after Him.
Your Sister in Christ,
Brenda
EKnight:
Yes Brenda, that is exactly how I feel and your post was most beneficial.
[i]Your good works and righteous character will pay dividends to others eventually—if not in this life, then in the Judgment.[/i]
I seriously hope this is true. I've often wondered if my husband (since we became one flesh) could/would benefit from my having faith. And my children are decent too, they just don't yet understand that these blessings come from God.
Thanks Brenda, I am now off to work feeling a bit free(er).
Eileen
Dave in Tenn:
"While I wholeheartedly agree we should be temperate in our criticisms and strive (through His Spirit) to be merciful I do not believe we should elevate men such as Luther and Calvin to a sainted status, the Lord did indeed use their works for His purpose but He also used many other less than godly and compassionate men to do so as well."
The Old Testament scriptures are full of them as well...disobedient prophets, evil Kings (both of Israel and foreign lands), Kings with evil in them...all set by God to do His work. All examples of how 'not to be'. No man is perfect, to be sure, but the Perfect has come.
Luk 6:40
(ISV) A disciple is not better than his teacher. But everyone who is fully-trained will be like his teacher.
Joh 17:23
(YLT) I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.
Kat:
Hi digitalwise,
--- Quote ---it would be helpful when any of these historical church leadership men are mentioned, a careful critic is done of them.
--- End quote ---
Here are a few things I found in a critic of Martin Luther.
-----------------------------------------------
The peasants of Germany revolted in 1525 because of their miserable living conditions and were slaughtered at the behest of Martin Luther! Here is a quote from Luther; "They should be knocked to pieces, strangled and stabbed, secretly and openly, by everybody who can do it, just as one must kill a mad dog!"
Here is another of Luther's commented that James was "a right strawy epistle" and questioned whether a book of such inferior worth even belonged in the New Testament. (from LUTHER, THE DERANGED THEOLOGIAN http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/luther1.htm)
Here is a comment from Ray concerning this qoute from Luther:
Martin Luther called James an Epistle of straw or almost worthless, you know. What do you do with straw? You burn it, you burn the straw and the stubble. That was Martin Luther, this great reformer? He thought that the Epistle of James was worth nothing more than to burn in the fire... how about that?
(from the May Bible study 'DOES A SOVEREIGN GOD EVER CHANGE ?')
I'm just can't see holding this man up as some great historical church leader, sure he made some reforms, but 'great' were his evil acts... I'll just stick with the Apostle James.
Mat 7:17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
v. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
v. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
v. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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