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Going to church?
OBrenda:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on July 15, 2008, 06:31:05 AM ---
http://www.awitness.org/books/luther/on_jews_and_their_lies_p2.html
Joe[/color]
--- End quote ---
Wow...Joe,
I just read the link you posted. How HORRIDLY Hateful! :'( I had no clue about this. I watched a "PBS Special" (I think) concerning him, and this side wasn't protrayed. (I don't understand in what way he felt the Jews were stealing from them?) ??? Thanks Kat this is all new stuff to me.
To bad he didn't read Rays teaching on the Beast!
Brenda
Dave in Tenn:
Eileen, you've probably read this already, but I just did this morning and it's of tremendous value for this discussion. (How often that seems to happen around here! Can anybody say, "Must be God?")
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html
digitalwise:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on July 15, 2008, 06:31:05 AM ---
While I wholeheartedly agree we should be temperate in our criticisms and strive (through His Spirit) to be merciful I do not believe we should elevate men such as Luther and Calvin to a sainted status, the Lord did indeed use their works for His purpose but He also used many other less than godly and compassionate men to do so as well.
Peace,
Joe
--- End quote ---
Very true. In reference to Luther, I was referrring to sanitation systems introduced by Calvin.
This is somewhat off topic here, I thought I'd clarify this situation. And for sure the historical record are far more complex then most are aware. And when we speak of these matters we should understand them better if we start quoting by ARDENT study and AVOIDANCE of the heresies. We do learn from our past.
Putting aside these violent historical times and the upheavels at this time, it is of necessity we LEARN from from these historical times of the ROOT theological developments so we can better understand the embedded heresies of today in the churches.
These violent times in the purposes in God were to release the hold of captivity of Babylon on the Church.
I am establisihng a church fellowship. My Christian journey from Armstrong, my journey in the scriptures and the historical record of the church in study spans over 35 years. I am FULLY conversant with the proper extraction of scripture. I do have formal training in many areas I will not elaborate here.
With that "ego" part of me aside here: It is to this I have come. The establishment of a fellowship here in Australia INDEPENDENT of Ray's efforts in the US.
However of interest and concern to you and everyone here - INDEPENDENTLY I have come to the doctrinal conclusions of Ray here on forum. On matters of scripture then WE DO NOT differ. And so it should be, afterall do not we have the same bible and access to works on original Greek and Hebrew and over 50+ bible translations.
It is those free thoughts I leave you,
Blessings from our Lord,
digitalwise.
digitalwise:
--- Quote from: Kat on July 15, 2008, 09:01:25 AM ---
Hi digitalwise,
I'm just can't see holding this man up as some great historical church leader, sure he made some reforms, but 'great' were his evil acts... I'll just stick with the Apostle James.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Dear Kate,
The Epistle of James was firstly addressed to the Jewish [Christian] believers. The added bonus of this epsitle is the balance in respect of the LAW as applied under Spiritual outpouring and the establishment of the Church after the Pentecost event recorded in Acts and the spread of the gospel.
The use of the espistle James upset Luther as the Roman Church of the time CORRUPTED the writings of James in an attempt to kill off the merits of Christ - that is SOLA by FAITH in Christ. We become PRESENT priviledged children of God without some inter mediatory Catholic priest telling us what the scriptures mean. The espitle of James became straw in the hands of papal doctrinal interpretation. So it may exist today and does in the forms of many heresies in the present day churches.
As for matters pertaining leadership and the violent historical records see my comments on the former post.
Blessing in the Lord,
digitalwise
Kat:
--- Quote ---The espitle of James became straw in the hands of papal doctrinal interpretation.
--- End quote ---
I have a different understanding of Luther concerning the Apostle James. Whether he had a problem with the Roman Church and their corruption of the writings of James, from his own quotes he clearly did not have understanding of what is taught by James and believed he contradicted Paul.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/luther1.htm#1 -----
On the canonical level, a particular target of Martin Luther's ire was the New Testament epistle of James. The epistles assertion that "faith without works is also dead" absolutely rubbed Martin the wrong way (as it had Paul before him). Luther commented that James was "a right strawy epistle" and questioned whether a book of such inferior worth even belonged in the New Testament.
"I maintain that some Jew wrote it [the Book of James] who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any."
"Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James, but in vain. 'Faith justifies' and 'faith does not justify' contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor's hood and let him call me a fool."
"We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school [the University of Wittenberg].... -------------------------------------------------
The church see an 'apparent' contradiction of the teachings of James and John, Luther certainly did. Though you want to be "INDEPENDENT of Ray's efforts" maybe you would like to listen to his Bible study - 'James & Paul Contradict?'
July 1, 2007 Bible study
http://bible-truths.com/audio/07-01-07_Part1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/07-01-07_Part2.mp3
Rays notes for this study: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4828.0.html
mercy, peace and loove
Kat
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