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Author Topic: The devil is in the details  (Read 3055 times)

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winner08

  • Guest
The devil is in the details
« on: July 20, 2008, 10:34:51 PM »

I was reading Gen. I have gotten to the part where God destroys  man in the flood, all except Noah. I notice this before but never really meditated on the words. God Say's He was sorry that he made man. Do I understand this correctly? Was God sorry? Well I really meditated on this word sorry, and I know God is not human and is spirit so how can He have a human emotion like being sorry, witch also indicates that He made a mistake so He was sorry. NOWAY we all know better. Also in Gen where sons of God has sex with the daughters of men. They produce giants. It all sounds so fairytalelish. A good story. So I esword and in the KJV I believe each word has a number and each number has a correct meaning in Hebrew of the word with the number. So giant also has the meaning of bully and tyrant. Now with this it make more since than what I know the meaning of giant is.Also the word sorry, this in Hebrew text says it has several meanings one is grieve. Now with this one word it changes the meaning of the text for me. So this makes me wonder just how many times I read a certain verse and it is not relay what I think it is because of a word might have a different meaning than what i know the word to means in English. Does anybody understand this?

                                                      Darren
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2008, 12:03:01 AM »

Ray has a process when reading scripture, it may help.

When something is true, scripturally true, then nothing can or WILL contradict that truth.

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be, are ordained of God. [Rom 13:1]

God knows, and ordains ALL things...Nothing takes God by suprise.

God has a will and purpose, nothing will change it. Some folks are given eyes to see these truths, some are not.


Chris R

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dewey

  • Guest
Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2008, 12:22:37 AM »

Hallelujaj, I think that you have it rite,good job chris love ya , dewey said it    I T S O C
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2008, 12:23:42 AM »


Hi Darren,

Quote
Now with this one word it changes the meaning of the text for me. So this makes me wonder just how many times I read a certain verse and it is not relay what I think it is because of a word might have a different meaning than what i know the word to means in English.


This is one of the points that Ray makes in the Bible study 'Does a sovereign God ever change?'  I just finished the transcript and here are a few comments Ray makes.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7714.0.html -------

Whenever we’re studying the Scripture we are faced with false definitions, bad translations, contradictions and the theory of ‘free will.’  These are all major road blocks to understanding the Scriptures.  
v
v
That’s why when I really want to study a subject, I mean if that word appears 158 times in the Bible, thank God for E-Sword, because I’ll click on every one.  I’ll do two things;  I see how it is used in a sentence, in context and I’ll see if it is the same word.  It may be translated from all different words and then you’ve got to take that into consideration.  That’s one area where a concordant is really good.

They tried to be unbiased when they translated the Scriptures.  So they came up with an equivalent of every Hebrew or Greek word.  In other words they studied it and examined it in every way and found the very closest English equivalent to that word.  Now sometimes because of idolisms and other things you can’t go with that, but a lot of times you can.  But then they would translate it to that and they would say, ‘well yea we think…’ but that’s your prejudice.  That is the King James Bible talking, you see.  No, they’ve already determined that word means this, so they would translate it to that.  Now sometimes it comes out a little awkward, but it’s at least considerably more accurate.  
v
v
The Scriptures are true.  Every word of translation is not always true.  But the Scriptures are true.  Even the Scriptures may have some mistakes, we have some that don’t have a verse or don’t have a word.  There is hardly any copies of the Greek or Hebrew Scriptures, that you can separate by a hundred years or so, that are all exactly perfect.  You know even though they counted the letters and everything, but they still are not completely the same.  But for the most part there is a consistency there.  
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

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dewey

  • Guest
Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2008, 12:53:22 AM »

Is there one cardanal beining out there that can say ,this is what that means , i dont think so . If so please explaine the spiritual meaning . so you have some  some scritures, now explaine them them  love ya dewey
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Samson

  • Guest
Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2008, 06:36:38 PM »


Hi Darren,

Quote
Now with this one word it changes the meaning of the text for me. So this makes me wonder just how many times I read a certain verse and it is not relay what I think it is because of a word might have a different meaning than what i know the word to means in English.


This is one of the points that Ray makes in the Bible study 'Does a sovereign God ever change?'  I just finished the transcript and here are a few comments Ray makes.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7714.0.html -------

Whenever we’re studying the Scripture we are faced with false definitions, bad translations, contradictions and the theory of ‘free will.’  These are all major road blocks to understanding the Scriptures.  
v
v
That’s why when I really want to study a subject, I mean if that word appears 158 times in the Bible, thank God for E-Sword, because I’ll click on every one.  I’ll do two things;  I see how it is used in a sentence, in context and I’ll see if it is the same word.  It may be translated from all different words and then you’ve got to take that into consideration.  That’s one area where a concordant is really good.

They tried to be unbiased when they translated the Scriptures.  So they came up with an equivalent of every Hebrew or Greek word.  In other words they studied it and examined it in every way and found the very closest English equivalent to that word.  Now sometimes because of idolisms and other things you can’t go with that, but a lot of times you can.  But then they would translate it to that and they would say, ‘well yea we think…’ but that’s your prejudice.  That is the King James Bible talking, you see.  No, they’ve already determined that word means this, so they would translate it to that.  Now sometimes it comes out a little awkward, but it’s at least considerably more accurate.  
v
v
The Scriptures are true.  Every word of translation is not always true.  But the Scriptures are true.  Even the Scriptures may have some mistakes, we have some that don’t have a verse or don’t have a word.  There is hardly any copies of the Greek or Hebrew Scriptures, that you can separate by a hundred years or so, that are all exactly perfect.  You know even though they counted the letters and everything, but they still are not completely the same.  But for the most part there is a consistency there.  
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mercy, peace and love
Kat



Well Said Kat,

                    I especially liked the point you expressed about the Translater's desire to translate a word with the closest English word available, but sometimes their BIASED OPINION ON WHAT THAT WORD MEANS AFFECTS HOW THEY RENDER THE WORD AND VERSE. A Forum member(John) and I were talking about that very thing this morning on the telephone. In the New Testament Greek, because their's no punctuation or prepositions in the literal translation, they can arbitrarily decide where a comma or period should go, where the word IN OR A should be. Two simple examples of that are Luke. 23:43( Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise); we know the deal with the comma in this passage and where they usually put it(before the word Today) and John. 4:24( God is Spirit); they put an A after is in some translations. Anyway, very good information expressed by Kat.

                                             In God's Love, Samson.
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winner08

  • Guest
Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2008, 08:11:39 PM »

Hello everbody and thanks for sharing your insite on this subject. I do have a question.I was wondering if ya'll could help me with. Today a friend and I had to take a road trip about 2hrs. and we dicussed God all the way. We had gotten into a heavy discussion on the subject of Jesus teaching in parables. She believe's that Jesus taught in parables so that the masses could understand.  I told her that was not true. I said Jesus taught in parables so that the masses would not understand. She could not grasp this. Why would Christ teach the people so they would not understand?" What is the purpose of that.? Why would He do that? It makes no sense. And the same thing with the Bible. Why would God make His word so hard to understand? God wants the people who believe uderstand Him. All I could say is to her was Jesus said it was not ment for them to know these things. That why He taught used parables. TRhen I said remember many are called but few are chosen. Only the elect will understand these things. What elese could I have said??? She believes if you want to know something bad enough and pray about it God will give it to you. I said only if it is in God's will in the first place to give you the knowledge.

                                      Thanks,Darren
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2008, 09:23:32 PM »


Hi Darren,

Mat 13:10  And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Mat 13:11  He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Mat 13:12  For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Mat 13:13  Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14  And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
       "Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
       And seeing you will see and not perceive;
Mat 13:15  For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
       Their ears are hard of hearing,
       And their eyes they have closed,
       Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
       Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
       So that I should heal them.'

We are now living in this present evil church age when the whole world is deceived.  As God is sovereign He wants the world to be deceived at this time and that is why Jesus spoke in parables.  Only the few/chosen/Elect will be given the eyes to understand these spiritual things that are preserved in the Scripture.  But the world reads the same Scriptures and put their own erroneous interpetation on them, "Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive."   Why is it this way, because now is judgment upon the house of God (1 Peter 4:17) salvation is only for the few Elect in this age.  The world will be saved in the next age when Christ rules, by means of the Lake of fire. 

Rev 20:15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here is an emails concerning the ages that God has in His plan.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1305.0.html -----

The Scriptures speak of "ageS" in the past (Rom. 16:25, II Tim. 1:9, Titus 1:2, ). So that would equal at least 2 or more ages before our present age.

The we have this "present evil age" (II Tim. 4:10, Titus 2:12, etc.)  So that would equal 1 more age.

Then we have "the on-coming ageS" (Eph. 2:7) and the "conclusion of the ageS" (Heb. 9:26).  (Eph. 2:7). That would equal at least 2 or more future ages.

So now we are already up to a minimum of FIVE AGES.

God be with you,
Ray

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WhoAmI

  • Guest
Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2008, 08:15:39 PM »

Hi Darren,

  Sounds like you did fine. If you have felt like she has in the past then tell her you understand how she can feel like that. She will get it when it is time.

Jeff

Ec 3:1 To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven
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David

  • Guest
Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2008, 08:38:57 PM »

We know that God feels love, compassion, mercy.....we know that God feels anger, wrath, indignation........who are we to say He can't feel sorrow, anguish, grieved etc?
In Rays Bible studdies, he's dropped a few hints about the possibility of how God got to be the way He is. He's posed the question before "where did God get patience from?" Ray points out that so far as he can tell, the Bible really doesn't give us any details about God before the creation, other than He existed.
I don't for one minute believe, as the Church would have us believe, that God was or is sorry that He made man because He got it wrong or it was just a big mistake, so He has to keep starting again.
But, we know that God knows all things, from beginning to end............so maybe this Sorrow spoken of, or "repentance" as its translated in some Bibles in the account of the flood, has something to do with God knowing what its going to take to make us in His image.  We know that God loves us, He loves the world (John 3:16). We know that we have much trial and tribulation to go through before we are made in His image. I think because God loves us so much, then of course He will feel sorrow, anguish etc for the trials we have ahead.   
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winner08

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Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2008, 11:08:43 PM »

Thanks David, I do believe that the Lord has somekind of emotions. It might not be like a human emotion but He surely does feel. I also said that maby the Lord feels sorry(repented) for the evil man was doing in His site. Not in man himself. But there is no way that God is sorry He created man. If that were the case then He would have created a mistake and we all know that is not possible.

                                Thanks,
                             Darren
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2008, 12:45:34 AM »


Hi Darren,

Quote
I also said that maby the Lord feels sorry (repented) for the evil man was doing in His site. Not in man himself. But there is no way that God is sorry He created man. If that were the case then He would have created a mistake and we all know that is not possible.

What you said is very close to what Ray was saying in the Bible study ‘Does a sovereign God ever change?’  I have some excerpts from the transcript on this, because there was a large section where Ray gives a lot of insight into this thing about God repenting or how He really felt about making mankind.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7714.0.html -----------

             DOES GOD “REGRET” MAKING HUMANITY?

Gen 6:6-7  And it repented (Heb. #5162) the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart...  for it repents Me that I have made them.

So the Lord repents.  But we read in Numbers 23...

Num 23:19  God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent (Heb. #5162 nacham): hath He said, and shall He not do it? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?
v
Does the phrase “God repented” in Gen. 6:6 contradict the phrase “He is not a man that He should repent,” in Num. 23:19?  Well what saith thou, what do you think?  Is that a contradiction?  He repented and He doesn’t repent, is that a contradiction?  Absolutely it’s a contradiction. 
v
Now the definition of  ‘nacham,’ that’s the word translated perish.       
Strong’s #5162 nacham means to sigh, that is breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is…  What is?  Sorry is.  What he is saying is, here’s what we mean by saying what it means to be sorry, do you follow?  Here’s what we mean by saying sorry, that is… (in a favorable sense) to pity or console.  That how it is used in a favorable sense.  Comfort (self), ease (one’s self), repent (-er, -ing, self) 
v
So we see that this word ‘nacham’ can be used in a favorable sense, to be sorry.  Here’s what we mean by sorry - to show pity, sympathy, mercy, comfort etc. So that is how it can be used.  The word itself is used 37 times, translated as repent in the Hebrew Scripture.  But guess what?  It’s translated 70 times on the favorable side; to comfort or be comforted or comforting.  That’s double, a hundred percent more times it‘s translated in some form of comfort.

                        DID MOSES CONVINCE GOD TO “CHANGE”?

Exo 32:10  Now therefore let Me alone (this is God speaking to Moses), that My wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of you a great nation.
V. 11  And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth Your wrath wax hot against Your people, which You hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
V. 12  Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did He bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against Your people.
V. 13  Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it forever.
V. 14  And the LORD repented of the evil which He thought to do unto His people.

So Moses says to God, ‘You can’t do that Lord.  You brought them out of Egypt and everybody sees what You did. You set them free and now You are going to be there God.  But now they are going to mock and say He delivered them out of Egypt and now He can’t protect them and He destroyed them.  You can’t do that, I know they are a mess and they worshipped the calf and all this, but have mercy.’ 

So God says, okay V. 14  “And the LORD repented of the evil which He thought to do unto His people.”  Well there it is.  Does God repent?   They say, ‘absolutely that is what it says, can’t you read, “the Lord repented”.’  The problem I have with that, I’m not sure that’s the word that should be used there. 

Are we not all familiar with the fact that many words have more than one definition?  Sometimes they are opposing definitions and it is used according to the context.  So what processes translators to think that they can translate a verse that will make God out to be a contradiction and a liar?  See that is my question.
v
God said to Moses “let Me alone.”  How many times have I told you that you have got to pay attention to all the words.  Pay attention to ALL the words.  He said “let Me alone” and then I will get angry and then I’ll do it.  Did Moses let Him alone?  No he didn’t.  So God can’t say He would do what He would do if Moses left Him along, because Moses didn’t leave Him alone.  Moses came to Israel’s defense.  He didn’t say alright God if that’s the way you see it, let’s get it over with, oh no.  He said, ‘no God, please no, some of them are my relatives, my brother Aaron, you know.’  He came to their defense. 

Do you believe it when the Bible says the sum of My word is truth (Psalms 119:160)?   
Do you believe God when He says I do not lie (Titus 1:2)? 
Do you believe God when He says He doesn’t change (Mal. 3:6)? 
Do you believe God when He says He doesn’t repent (Num. 23:19)? 

Well it says right there that “He repented.”  I’m saying it is the wrong word.  I know what Greek word was used ‘nacham,’ it means to show mercy or pity and that’s the way Concordance translated it.  “So Yahweh showed mercy,” because Moses came to the defense and didn’t leave God alone.  But God knows the end from the beginning.  Do you believe that verse He knows the end from the beginning?  He knew Moses was going to do that, so He never changed His mind.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

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winner08

  • Guest
Re: The devil is in the details
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 12:45:39 AM »

Yes Kat I understand. It is like I said when you know what the correct meaning of a word is, it's clear. We know what sorry means in english but when trying t understanding God's word, you have to dig a little deeper. Thanks Kat you always come through.

                                     Darren
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