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What do these 2 verses mean?

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hillsbororiver:
Hi again Marques,

Hasn't the present "kingdom" been led captive into Babylon?

Haven't the "sheep" been lied to and coerced into believing the false doctrines of 30,000 plus denominations?

Is the "kingdom within" more in line with the "earnest" (down payment) of the Spirit?

I believe the Kingdom within is the promise not the fulfilment (at this time), the true Kingdom will be established at His return. We are witnessing the counterfeit kingdom of man masquerading as the Kingdom of God.

If we tell a child it is "within them" to accomplish something does that mean they have already accomplished it?

Just more thoughts.  ;)

Peace,

Joe

Kat:

Hi Marques,

Well I've wondered about those Scriptures myself.  I have a little bit of a different perspective on this, that I thought you might like to hear.

Mat 11:12  And from the days of John the Baptist until now...

This is the period of time of the beginning of the gospel being preached, as it was started by John and Christ was saying it was going on up until that very moment.  

Mark 1:1  The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
v. 2  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
v. 3  The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
v. 4  John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

So this verse in Matt. is speaking of 'the gospel of Jesus Christ.'  So isn't this speaking of the period of time of Christ's ministry.

Mat 11:12 ...the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.

So Jesus Christ is the Representative of the Kingdom of God on earth at that time and it seems to me in this verse Christ is speaking of Himself.  
Ray has explained that Jesus was thronged every where He went by the multitudes of people coming to Him.  We have a Scripture that says the crowds wanted to "take Him by force" and set Him up as a King right then.

John 6:15  Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.

I think all this ties in with the Scripture in Luke.

Luke 16:16  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

The crowds of people were so large and they were literally pressing into Him.

Mark 3:9  So He told His disciples that a small boat should be kept ready for Him because of the multitude, lest they should crush Him.
v. 10  For He healed many, so that as many as had afflictions pressed about Him to touch Him.

Just another opinion to consider  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. I like what Joe had to say.  Of course Scripture can have multiple layers of meaning.

winner08:
Hi Brain: I had a question yesterday that you answered today without even knowing it. Anyways I give you a brief set up. A friend and I were talking about God most of the day yesterday. She said she believer's that if you want to know God's word, and you seek really hard and pray for God to give you the understanding of His word then He will give it to you. My response was no matter how badly you want to know these things if it is not in God's will in the first place to give it to you then no amount of seeking and praying will make it so. I thought since God mind does not change and therefore His plan for us from beginning to end will not change. In reading Ray 12 step to understanding prayers I believe he said that if what we pray for is not already in God's will for us then our prayer will not be answered. Even though we might want something really bed. As in knowing His truth. Then I read in this post where you said the opposite."if you really want it then God will give it. Even though it is an interruption in the program He had in mind. I am not sure but that sort of sounds like (interruption in our program) God changes His mind. Is is not so if God has to interrupt His program for ever human, how could His plan (program) ever get done? Just a few questions I don't understand. It confusses me. Please take no offence to my post. I really just don't understand.

                                 Thanks, Darren

mharrell08:
Thanks for all your responses everyone.

I am having trouble expressing what I want to say but I'll try one more time:

Christ says starting at John the Baptist until now [start of Christ ministry which is still going on] that the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence aka men presseth into it. That 'until now' seems to be a stopping point. He says it started at John and stopped ['until now'] at the start of his ministry. As we all know that Christ 'words are spirit', what does this mean from a spiritual application.

The people pressing upon Christ, almost crushing him, attempting to take him by force to be a king, etc all happened after Christ states 'until now'.

Now a great point Kat pointed out is about John preparing the way for our Lord. In John's preparation, is when Christ states the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence aka men presseth into it. He states this was so 'until now' or when His ministry started. So I ask, what does that mean spiritually?


Also Joe, when I say the kingdom of heaven is within us, as Christ states to unconverted disciples in Luke 17:21, it is with the understanding of being complete at a future time. Like when Ray stated at the conference for 'What is the gospel of the Kingdom' that "we are the kingdom". This I also understood to be complete at a future time. Like Ray also stated, the 'heavens' is us. But I agree with your points it just was different somewhat from what I was asking. Thanks also to you to Kat


Thanks,

Marques

Brian:
Greetings brother Marques,

First let me say that there is no offense taken. It just so happens I am sharing with a little group Ray's 12 Truths to Understanding His Word and we just finished number 7. (One for each month) Let's see if we can put this in a different perspective.

Before John the Baptist began his ministry, the law and the prophets (along with the holy writings), were the final word from God. This passage (Luke 16:14-18) begins with a rebuke to the Pharisees. It says that they derided Jesus. The word literally means that they turned up their noses at him. The Pharisees tended to connect earthly prosperity with goodness; wealth was a sign that a man was a good man. The Pharisees put-on a parade of goodness and they regarded material prosperity as a reward of that goodness; but the more they exalted themselves before men, the more they became an abomination to God. In other words it is bad enough for a man to think himself as a good man; it is worse when he points to material prosperity as an incontestable proof of his goodness.

The Pharisees, being ignorant of the perfect righteousness of the law, despised the characteristics of the new covenant with respect to the old. Christ declares, by the seventh commandment, how they were insincere expositors of the law. It's no wonder that they derided Christ, and despised his ministry. The Pharisees did not understand the  spiritual things which were promised in the old covenant. And since they valued themselves on having the law and the prophets, Christ observes, that “since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached”. The Gospel (good news), and the mysteries relating to the kingdom of God, which lies not in outward, but in inward spiritual things.

Deissmann (Bible Studies, p. 258) cites an inscription where biazomai is reflexive middle and used absolutely. Here the meaning is clear that everyone forces his way into the kingdom of God, that some today, as in the day of Christ, affect to contemn. TheSavior alludes to the fact that the detested tax collectors and sinners are pressing into the kingdom of heaven, while the proud Pharisees reject it. Large multitudes crowded the ministry of John, of Christ, and of his apostles; the people flocked in great numbers to hear the word, and seemed disposed to embrace the good news of the kingdom of heaven. They “pressed” on one another to hear it. The Scribes and Pharisees did all they could to hinder and inhibit the multitudes. (cf Mat 23)

When Jesus came preaching the good news of the kingdom of God, the most unlikely people, the tax-collectors and the sinners, came storming into the kingdom even when the scribes and Pharisees would have set up barriers to keep them out. But Jesus emphasized that the kingdom was not the end of the law. No man was to think that Christ offered an easy way in which no laws remained. The great laws stood unaltered and unalterable. Certain Hebrew letters are very like each other and are distinguished only by the serif, the little line at the top or bottom. (Also known as Jot, Dot, or Tittle) Not even a serif of the great laws would pass away.
As an illustration of law that would never pass away Jesus took the law of chastity. This very definite statement of Jesus must be read against the contemporary background of Jewish life. The Jew glorified fidelity and chastity.

But the tragedy was that at this time the marriage bond was on the way to being destroyed. In the eyes of Jewish law a woman was a thing. She could divorce her husband only if he became a leper or an apostate or if he ravished a virgin. Otherwise a woman had no rights whatever and no redress, other than that the marriage dowry must be repaid if she was divorced. The law said, "A woman may be divorced with or without her will; a man only with his will." The Mosaic law (Deut 24:1) said, "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favour in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house." The bill of divorce had to be signed before two witnesses, "Let this be from me thy writ of divorce and letter of dismissal and deed of liberation, that thou mayest marry whatsoever man thou wilt." Divorce was as simple and easy as that.

Jesus here lays down the sanctity of the marriage bond. The saying is repeated in Matt 5:31-32 where adultery is made the sole exception to the universal rule. We sometimes think our own generation is bad, but Jesus lived in a generation where things were every bit as bad. If we destroy family life, we destroy the very basis of the Christian life; and Jesus here lays down a law which men relax only at their peril.

Continuing:

The tax collectors and sinners, whom the scribes and Pharisees think have no right to the kingdom of the Messiah, filled with earnestness, seize at once on the offered mercy of the Gospel, and so take the kingdom as by force from those learned Pharisees who claimed for themselves the chiefest places in that kingdom. Christ himself said, The tax collectors and harlots go before you [Pharisees] into the kingdom of God. cf, Luke 7:28-30. He that will take, get possession of the kingdom of righteousness, peace, and spiritual joy, must be in earnest. (Like the story in Mark 2:1-5)

The Savior of all is simply stating a fact in figurative language. He says (to the Pharisees v. 14) there was a great rush, or a crowd pressing to hear John. Multitudes went out to hear him (cf Matt 3:5), as if they were about to take the kingdom of heaven by force. So, he says, it has continued. That is to say, the people kept coming. Since good news of the kingdom of heaven, has been preached, there has been a rush to it. Men have been earnest about it; they have come pressing to obtain the blessing, as if they would take it by violence. There is  an allusion here to the manner in which cities were taken. Besiegers pressed upon them with violence, and demolished the walls. With such earnestness and violence, he says, men had pressed around him and John, since they began to preach. There is no allusion here to the manner in which individual sinners seek salvation; but it is a simple record of the fact that multitudes had thronged around him and John to hear the good news of the kingdom of heaven.

Maybe if I explain it in this manner, the place you shop at is having a great after Thanksgiving Day sale on an item you and everyone in your area needs. People will start lining up on Wednesday for the sale that doesn't start until Friday. By the time the store is opening up on Friday there is a massive crowd pressing literally into the store to get at the item that they earnestly desire. It's not the best analogy, I'm sure, but it shows the activity in a modern perspective.

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them [the Pharisees] and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
(Luk 17:20-22 KJV)

Have a happy and be sage  :)
Brian

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