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How successful have you been at opening people's eyes?

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legoman:
Thanks for all the replies so far.  At least I don't feel alone in this matter :) Its kindof the response I expected.

As far as the debating goes, I don't think I'm doing it to be prideful, though I can see it does creep in there sometimes.  I can totally see the point about not debating fools... learned that the first time when I was posting in the non-christian forum.  I now see its totally true you must go into Babylon before you can come out of her.  If you haven't even been in the church to begin with, none of what Ray is saying would make sense.

Anyway believe it or not I think I may be making minor progess over at bibleforums.  Most of my discussions have been about free will.  Most people don't buy into it, even though its easy to see from Romans 9 and the multitude of other verses (Ephesians 1:4, romans 11:32,etc).  I have had a couple people respond with thoughtful questions, saying they hadn't seen these ideas before... so perhaps I am planting some seeds.  But it does seem like most people are only trying to debate me and therefore justify free will in their own minds. 

I totally agree that only God can draw people in, but he does use us to achieve his will.  I can only hope that maybe I have planted some seeds, or "watered previous seeds" as someone put it. 

But as I said the posting online is primarily a way for me to learn & verify what Ray is saying.  It gives me a good devil's advocate.  I look at it this way - I was deceived for the 30 years of my life I was going to church - I don't want to be deceived again.  I want to make sure the truths revealed here are correct.  And so far I'm convinced what Ray is saying is the truth.  I now read what mainstream Christians say, and I realize the obvious flaws in their thinking.  That's what frustrates me - if I figured this out, I need to share this, cause this is so uplifting and makes sense of everything.  I mean one of the biggest arguments that athiests use is that God doesn't make sense because he condemns everyone to hell.  But he really doesn't!  But no atheist will believe it because the church says he does.  So frustrating.  LOL.  I'm sure eventually I will be posting about universalism and I will get banned from their forum, and probably go down in a blaze, but perhaps I will have opened someone's eyes.  But I have to remember it is only God's will that will open someone's eyes I guess.

Anyway the real reason for this post is not about me debating people in forums, but me opening the eyes of the people I love, especially my wife and my parents.  I think I can explain it to my wife now, but we just never seem to get around to talking about these things.  I think I have to set aside "serious discussion" time and actually go through it all with her.

Its even harder with my parents as they live about 2000 miles from us, so we only see them maybe 2-3 times a year.  Its kind of hard for me to bring this up on the phone or via email.  I'm such a chicken :)  Hopefully I will discuss it a bit when I see them at thanksgiving.  I'm worried how it will go though.

Sometimes I think I should just send my Mom a link to Ray's site saying "hey check this out" and that's it.  Maybe let the site speak for itself.  But I worry the lightbulb won't go on for her and she will think I'm crazy and have become a new-age "satanist" or something.  My mom & Dad were pretty diehard - growing up in the 80s, they didn't want us playing D&D or anything like that.  We were pretty committed to the church, and I got my convictions from her, which I thank her for.  If the light bulb does go on for her, I could see her potentially breaking down and crying.  It will be tough.

Thanks for listenening...

Kevin aka Legoman

legoman:
Oops sorry I just realized the other forum I have been posting at is bibleforums.org, not bibleforums.com, just in case anyone wanted to check it out.

Please don't take this as a solicitation for that site.  Just wanted to clarify.

Cheers,
Legoman

Dave in Tenn:
One thing I have noticed (and hugely appreciated) is the myriad and individual ways God our Father has prepared each of us to recieve this truth.  WE didn't all come to believe in the same way, so why do we assume that those we want to reach must come the same way?  Maybe that's part of the reason for Anthony's 'flusteration'.  Despite the fact that we here share many beliefs in common, God has guided our own paths, beliefs, experiences, mental, emotional, and spiritual framework to make it possible for us to recieve this Truth in His good time.

I've come to the conclusion that until the fruits of the Spirit are yeilded in ME to a greater extent than they are in my Church-going, devotional reading, 'trying' Christian loved ones, it would be folly for me to ask them to exchange what they have (by God's grace) for what I have (by God's grace).  They are not the enemy to me.  I am.  The one I need to debate with the hardest is my own carnal flesh.  Until that ******* is beat, I'm no better than Hagee trying to preach.

legoman:
That is a good point Dave.  I know I have a long way to go to rid myself of the "carnal mind".  And I know I can't do it myself, I need to pray more, and allow God to work in me, and hope God will prepare me for what lies ahead.

Kent:
I have better luck with non-christians than I do with those stuck in churchianity. Not that I can convert anyone, that is not my job, and I never get mad at them. Frustrated sometimes yes, but not mad.

I've had more civil conversations with satanists, wiccans, and muslims than I have ever had with "christians". "christians" will not engage in a civil and kind conversation. Try it, and you will see hate. Real hate. The satanists, wiccans, and muslims are kind and considerate by comparison. I also think that they are just more intelligent and are more open to the truth.
I know, there are exceptions to this, and I have dealt with them too...

When I "debate", I do not do it for the benefit of the person I am debating with. I do it for those others that overhear or read it. The person I am debating with will never be convinced, and I know that going in. It plants a seed, IMO, and it is up to God to grow that seed.

I am like Ray, in this regard. Not that I know as much as he does, but in the sense that I do not go on the defensive, but I go on the offensive without being offensive, if you know what I mean. Oh, the "christians" think I am being offensive, that is for sure  :D but others know.

I really recommend Rays' audios too. You will learn a lot.


Edited to add:
You will not know, or will not always know, the effect you have on others. Dont let this discourage you.
We won't find that out, until Jesus tells us what effect we had on others.  I just personally hope I didn't screw up too badly...

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