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Free will discussion

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legoman:
Hi,

As I said I have been discussing free will a lot at another site, so I thought I would describe here what I believe the truth to be is.  If this isn't the right forum for this post please let me know.

And please let me know if you think I've got anything wrong.  This is all from Ray's teachings, but sometimes it takes a further study to get what he is saying. 

The logical argument

Free will cannot coexist with a God who is all-knowing and has perfect foreknowledge.  If God has perfect foreknowledge, then it is not possible to make a choice that contradicts that foreknowledge.  Therefore our choices are not "free".  QED.  Our choices are caused.  We don't have a "free" will, we have a "caused" will, because every decision we make is based on  some other cause.  If you trace all the causes back to the beginning of our life, eventually we get to our birth place, who our parents were, and what we were taught as children.  If you keep going, all causes eventually trace back to God.  God is the ultimate cause of everything.

The scriptural argument

There are many many scriptures that Ray and others have posted that make it clear we couldn't have free will.  God is the potter we are the clay.  God hardens pharaoh's heart.  We don't choose God, God chooses us.  Side note: not sure if you guys know of Martin Zender, but he has a pretty good website on the concepts.  I like to refer to his article on free will, it is a good intro to the topic (http://www.martinzender.com/Zenderature/free_will_and_the_oh_well_creed.htm).

I won't list all the scripture here as most people here know where to find them.

Implications

This is where I probably get into trouble :) so I would appreciate responses here if I am way off base.

All choices are caused and are based on our environment, what we have learned, our previous experiences, our circumstances, etc.  God sets up these causes.  God is the ultimate cause of everything.

Because we don't have free will, we have a caused will, we make choices that have been predetermined.  Ray says "we volunteer" to make the choice.  We volunteer to sin, even though God has set it all up.

This is where I have a bit of trouble. Ray says God is the cause of everything, but God doesn't force us to sin.  God just sets up the circumstances and then we come along and can do nothing but sin.  Does this sound right?  I always get people asking me well if God sets everything up, then he is the one that makes us sin.  It is hard to get away from that reasoning, but I sort of see what Ray means when he says "we volunteer to sin".  Comments welcome.

Original Sin

God intended to us to sin.  God designed us that way.  Does that mean God sinned?  No.  Did God create sin?  I'm not sure on this one.  Did he actually create the concept of sin?  Is it fair to say God create the "sin of this world" when he designed us to sin?  Likewise, did God create the concepts of goodness/sin, or were they intrinsic to himself/the universe?

God also designed satan to sin.  Satan didn't fall from being an angel.  He was created at the time of creation along with everything else - he sinned from the beginning, and god intended it that way.  Satan is the one who causes sin to enter the world - but who is in charge of Satan?  God is.  So in that way God causes sin to enter the world.  Is it fair to say this?

Examples

Here are some examples I like to use to help understand free will.  Again I appreciate any comments you have.

The robot example
This one is good because people always bring up the "I am not a robot" argument.

Making a choice does not imply free will. The robot argument will illustrate this. A robot is just a computer with some fancy mechanisms attached to it. The computer makes choices. But it doesn't have free will. No one claims a computer has free will. The computer takes input, and then makes a decision based on that input. It can do this very quickly, giving the appearance that it is "smart". But in reality it is just a bunch of bits, 0's and 1's, tiny transistors, switching on and off in different combinations and patterns. That's all a computer is.

Now, we do the same thing. We take input, and make a decision. That's it! We make choices, but they are not free - they are based on the "input" around us, what we have learned, what our environment is. In that way, we are the same as a computer.

But in another way we are completely different from a computer. We are superior to the computer. The computer doesn't know its a computer. We know we are human. We are self-aware, the computer (or robot) is not.  We have the capacity for love, emotion; we can learn and gain experience.

The ultimate point of it all is for us to learn good and bad - learn righteousness.  God does this by providing the experience he intends for each of us.  Its all part of God's plan.

The movie analogy
You could liken the creation to one giant movie/script. God wrote, produced, directed and even stars in this movie. We all play our roles as well.

God can fast-forward to the end to see how the movie plays out if he wants, but he doesn't really have to because he wrote, produced, and directed the movie. He knows how it turns out.

We make our choices, but its like the choices that characters make in a movie. No matter how many times you watch the movie, the characters still make the same choices. So it is with us (from God's perspective). Our choices are cast in stone, we are just following the script of God's plan. We don't have free will anymore than the characters in a movie have free will.

Notice I said God even stars in this movie. He plays the role he has written for himself. Of course he appears in the form of Jesus, and his resurrection, but in other ways as well. God answers prayers. God appears to some and speaks to them (Adam in the Garden, Moses, etc).

Its a process. We will learn good and evil. We will learn righteousness. We will gain experience. We will be perfected.

Summary

I apologize for the rambling length of this post.  This is just some stuff I've been discussing with other people that I've pasted together for your perusal.  If you think I'm way off base, please let me know.

It is still hard to accept it sometimes.  Its tough to unlearn 30 years of people telling you that you have free will.

I look forward to your comments.

Cheers,
Kevin (Legoman)

Dave in Tenn:
Random comments:

God certainly created Evil.  God gave the law, and the Law created Sin.  Without Law there would be no sin.  God created us not only capable of sinning but heavily drawn to and prone to sin.  If it weren't for the Grace of God acting in us, we would do nothing but sin.  Without the Grace of God acting in and around us, we would be incapable of any act of righteousness whatsoever.

If that's true, then I am GLAD we don't have a free will. 

The movie analogy falls down in that there are actors playing roles and they will have read at least their lines (if not the whole script) before delivering them.  I'm not sure we even rise to the level of actors in God's movie.  Maybe we are the script.  Don't want to follow that too far. 

Heidi:
I don't think that either example is correct....IMO God gave us an experience of good and evil to humble us by and to be transformed into the image of His Son.  You cannot experience anything without emotions, touch, smell, fear etc. involved; therefor the robot example wont work and neither your movie script example.  I agree with Dave...we don't know the script.  Praise God for that! :)

Craig:
Before anyone debates or teaches, you would all be wise to study to show yourselves approved, then God will do the drawing and may draw a person to us to give an answer to their questions.  Did Ray call you on the phone or knock on your door to explain the truths of God to you?  Or did Ray spend years of study and God drew you to the truth he taught?  We would be wise to throw away the babylonian doctrine of "winning souls".  It is not scriptural so why do we insist on it.  I've been guilty of it as have most others here so it must be part of the journey, but unless God does the drawing we will fail.  If we don't study for many hours/years and we only understand the truths of His word and don't really die to self and live it we will fail and look foolish to those we are trying to convert.  We will probably make things worse rather than better.

Craig

legoman:
Thanks for the comments.

Dave, God created evil - so God created sin (or at least the sin of this world)... correct?  I'm just trying to clarify this in my own mind.

Heidi, Dave - I know the examples aren't perfect.  Good point about the movie - the real life actors know the script as well, but we don't know it of course, because we don't have perfect foreknowledge.  And I should have mentioned the humility aspect as well.  So perhaps the real point of it all is to learn righteousness and humility so we can show/see God's glory? 

The examples were more to show how the flow of time works and how we can make decisions without actually having free will.  A lot of people seem to get hung up on the fact that we make decisions, therefore we must have free will.  "Obviously I could have chose to go to work or I could have chose to stay home, therefore I have free will!"  etc.  But they don't realize that whatever they decided, God already knew it, therefore they really had no "free" choice.

Craig, sorry if this is the wrong spot for debate.  I was more asking for clarification, not debate. I think I understand what you mean in that it takes years to really figure this stuff out, and if we start debating with people who have no clue (while we are just learning ourselves), we could do more damage, or push them away - but it would be God's will whatever we do correct?  And perhaps it may plant some seeds.  I don't view it as "winning souls", but trying to open eyes or plant a seed.  Perhaps my attempts will be futile (as others have said), but we don't know how God works, and as Kent said in my other thread, we don't know what effect we will have with our words.  Perhaps the person we are debating will be shut out, but other people reading may gain understanding.

There is no doubt I am just starting the personal journey as well.  That is the side I should really explore - how do "die" to the self?  I know God needs to lead me, but it is difficult for sure.

More comments are welcome please.  I'm trying to get a crystal clear picture of it all in my mind.  Should probably go continue with my 2nd reading of the LoF series :)

Cheers,
Legoman

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