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Free will discussion
Kat:
Hi Kevin,
--- Quote ---I give the standard logical reason: God has complete foreknowledge, so we cannot make a choice that would contradict that foreknowledge. Therefore we don't have free choices. This makes complete logical sense to me.
But then the free-will believer will say, "but how did God get that foreknowledge? Just because God knows what we will do doesn't mean we don't have free will. God knows what we do by looking at our free will choices."
--- End quote ---
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,'
Now how can God "declare" (to state emphatically) what the end will be if we can make free will choices that are different from what He says He already knows will happen? Free will would cause things to change constantly. This is a really tangled web that the chuch has weaved.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
legoman:
--- Quote from: Kat on September 05, 2008, 03:07:06 PM ---
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,'
--- End quote ---
Hey thanks for reminding me of this verse Kat! Yes that one is pretty clear, it is God that declares the end, not us and our "free will".
And I realize you are all right in that some people will never understand (until the end), and only God can open their eyes.
But I'm still pretty green, and will continue to debate and spread the message for a while. I'm sure God has planned that for me (since that is what I am doing) and he planned this so I would learn something - probably to learn not to debate with the foolish :) And probably so I would learn humility.
Rodger (I think) had said before, God had also planned I would debate against people who wouldn't have their eyes opened (at least not yet). It does boggle the mind sometimes.
Cheers all...
Legoman
AK4:
I found a nice view of Augustine's book, here is an excerpt:
On Grace and Free Will
Written by St. Augustine of Hippo in A.D. 426 or 427
Extract from Augustine's Retractions (Book II, Chapter 66): There are some persons who suppose that the freedom of the will is denied whenever God's grace is maintained, and who on their side defend their liberty of will so peremptorily as to deny the grace of God. This grace, as they assert, is bestowed according to our own merits. It is in consequence of their opinions that I wrote the book entitled On Grace and Free Will. This work I addressed to the monks of Adrumetum, in whose monastry first arose the controversy on that subject, and that in such a manner that some of them were obliged to consult me thereon. The work begins with these words: "With reference to those persons who so preach the liberty of the human will."
Addressed to Valentinus and the monks of Adrumetum, and completed in one book.
Chapter 1 [I.]— The Occasion and Argument of This Work.
With reference to those persons who so preach and defend man's free will, as boldly to deny, and endeavour to do away with, the grace of God which calls us to Him, and delivers us from our evil deserts, and by which we obtain the good deserts which lead to everlasting life: we have already said a good deal in discussion, and committed it to writing, so far as the Lord has vouchsafed to enable us. But since there are some persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended, I have determined to write somewhat on this point to your Love, my brother Valentinus, and the rest of you, who are serving God together under the impulse of a mutual love. For it has been told me concerning you, brethren, by some members of your brotherhood who have visited us, and are the bearers of this communication of ours to you, that there are dissensions among you on this subject. This, then, being the case, dearly beloved, that you be not disturbed by the obscurity of this question, I counsel you first to thank God for such things as you understand; but as for all which is beyond the reach of your mind, pray for understanding from the Lord, observing, at the same time peace and love among yourselves; and until He Himself lead you to perceive what at present is beyond your comprehension, walk firmly on the ground of which you are sure. This is the advice of the Apostle Paul, who, after saying that he was not yet perfect, Philippians 3:12 a little later adds, Let us, therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded, Philippians 3:15 — meaning perfect to a certain extent, but not having attained to a perfection sufficient for us; and then immediately adds, And if, in any thing, you be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereunto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule. Philippians 3:16 For by walking in what we have attained, we shall be able to advance to what we have not yet attained,— God revealing it to us if in anything we are otherwise minded,— provided we do not give up what He has already revealed.
Chapter 2 [II.]— He Proves the Existence of Free Will in Man from the Precepts Addressed to Him by God.
Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards. For they are given that no one might be able to plead the excuse of ignorance, as the Lord says concerning the Jews in the gospel: If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. John 15:22 Of what sin does He speak but of that great one which He foreknew, while speaking thus, that they would make their own— that is, the death they were going to inflict upon Him? For they did not have no sin before Christ came to them in the flesh. The apostle also says: The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold back the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him are from the creation of the world clearly seen— being understood by the things that are made— even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are inexcusable. Romans 1:18-20 In what sense does he pronounce them to be inexcusable, except with reference to such excuse as human pride is apt to allege in such words as, If I had only known, I would have done it; did I not fail to do it because I was ignorant of it? or, I would do it if I knew how; but I do not know, therefore I do not do it? All such excuse is removed from them when the precept is given them, or the knowledge is made manifest to them how to avoid sin.
LOL. Doesnt that part i highlighted sound like the trinity doctrine
AK4:
whoops i didnt find that excerpt i copied and pasted it from someone who was saying we have free will
hillsbororiver:
There are so many more scriptural witnesses in Ray's Free Will series, here are just a few from the top of my head;
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death and shall not find it; and shall desire to die and death shall flee from them.
Peace,
Joe
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