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Free will discussion
Samson:
Hello Kevin,
Craig is correct, I wouldn't hold my breath and expect to convince people of another Site. It's certainly an enjoyable discussion(The Free Will Myth). In conversation with a relative about free will or Free Moral Agency, I mentioned to them that their aren't any Scriptures in the Bible that show we have Free Will and that I would welcome them producing one for me. Their is nothing wrong with discussing the Bible in harmony with 1 Peter. 3:15; otherwise be cautious so as to avoid senseless debates with those that are not ready to accept this deep truth.
If someone shows sincere interest and has the desire for an answer and explanation as to our not having Free Will, that would be a good opening for dialogue with the prospect of leading them to this Site to read Ray's Articles or especially listen to his Free Will Audio's.
Also, right on this General Discussion Section, Joe Hillsbororiver has an Old E-mail posted that explains quite well that God's RESPONSIBLE for everthing, but People are ACOUNTABLE for their actions(choices); this E-mail response of Ray's ties in quite nicely with this thread.
Interestingly enough for me, at least, a good proof that we don't have Free Will is that their are many Biblical Examples showing we don't have Free Will: 1) Paul's Conversion on the road to Damascus, 2) Peter's predicted Denial by Jesus, 3) Pharaoh Ramses heart being hardened by God; 4) Job chapter 1 and 2, Satan didn't have free will in this case; 5) Jesus himself said he did nothing of his own initiative.
Yet, in contrast with the above, their are no examples of anyone having Free Will( Uncaused Choices). I appreciate Ray's comment to people regarding Death, " Free Will yourself outta that " If we had Free Will, we would be able to prevent our Death and completely control the outcome of every choice we make. The CAUSE and EFFECT(choices) relationship is a Scientific Fact, it's irrefutable.
None of the above is meant or intended as a debate, for that is not my purpose here, but merely for a contribution to this thread. I don't like debates and the CAUSE for that is spending twenty years preaching and " teaching " with the Door to Door method(JW) and although I had some interesting and stimulating conversations over the years; I CERTAINLY DIDN'T WIN ANY SOULS. If it's God's Plan, individuals will eventually learn these Truths, it's All of God and not of Ourselves. I don't know of any Forum members that planned to find this Site, usually it happened unexpectedly.
Just some thoughts on this thread.
Kind Regards, Samson.
AK4:
Hey Legoman,
I like to throw at em-- "so, before you knew about this Truth of no free will, did you feel like a robot. No? So why now that you know you are saying we're robots?"
I had this conversation with my girlfriend a little while back and i brought up what Ray said in a email or somewhere about asking your spouse if there is no cause that they/you love them/me. It went something like that.
Basically i said to her--- if there can be no cause for something, what if i said to you that i love you and there is absolutely nothing you've done, or do, or will do, that made me love you, love you now, or to me keep loving you.
You should have seen the look on her face. Here was the phases of it--- ;D :o :( and then :-X.
It was funny. Then she started to get what i was meaning about no free will. It sounds nice on the premise but when you/they think about it, its like !@#$%.
Phil3:10:
Craig,
You are so very right. GOD does it all and uses mankind in the way HE sees fit. There are to many teachers who know too little and just confuse more. In over two years I have not been able to refute any of Ray Smith's teachings. However, it is so very easy to refute the teachings of all others. GOD is in total control.
Phil3:10
legoman:
Hi Rodger,
I agree the anologies can only go so far, but they were more just to help give a tiny piece of understanding on how we percieve time and make decisions.
Anyway, when explaing free will to other people I keep running into this problem.
I give the standard logical reason: God has complete foreknowledge, so we cannot make a choice that would contradict that foreknowledge. Therefore we don't have free choices. This makes complete logical sense to me.
But then the free-will believer will say, "but how did God get that foreknowledge? Just because God knows what we will do doesn't mean we don't have free will. God knows what we do by looking at our free will choices."
Argh. It's hard to explain this with that kind of thinking. I know for you and me, its obvious. What this person has said is completely backwards. They are essentially saying man's will is driving God's will. God gets his foreknowledge by looking at us!
I then try to explain, well how can God be all-knowing if we have free will? And the response is "because he is omniscient and has foreknowledge."
So frustrating. Its like they are just dancing around the truth. Should I just give up? Perhaps it is futile to explain this to some people.
Kevin
KristaD:
--- Quote from: legoman on September 05, 2008, 11:13:49 AM ---So frustrating. Its like they are just dancing around the truth. Should I just give up? Perhaps it is futile to explain this to some people.
Kevin
--- End quote ---
Yes, exactly. There is nothing to be gained by arguing with them and even if you describe it perfectly they will not get it unless God wants them to. ONLY GOD CAN OPEN THEIR EYES and you are powerless to do anything. You are waving around big neon signs in front of people who can't see. Just study, pray and say what He leads you to, but don't spend a moment thinking about what you will say because He already said He will speak for us. This isn't something you have any power to do, you just have to let it go and trust Him, He's going to show them just wait. Everything else is irrelevant.
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